New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Do you have a query on how to get things done in Andalucia, where to find things, who to call? Find out by posting and hear about others experiences.
ashtondav
Resident
Posts: 1775
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Northampton Frigiliana/Nerja

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby ashtondav » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:51 pm

You’re lucky. I wouldn’t dream of (long term) renting out my house until all utilities have been transferred. Financial suicide.

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3275
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby elusive » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:30 pm

Our two rents were always in the landlords name. Seems to be the norm. They prob cant be bothered and even more so if they arent declaring it!

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:32 pm

Ana de Chipiona wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:23 pm Hi Steve - how are you getting on now with your dd and Starling Bank? We are going to close our Caixa account and we have already set up a Starling bank account.
Hi Ana -

Unfortunately, it's proving to be quite a struggle to sort out the SEPA direct debits (SDDs), especially since I'm having to do so remotely from the UK. It's certainly stretching my Spanish language skills to their limit.

To date, the only SDD that seems to have been fixed is the one for our quarterly payment to the community of property owners.

The SDDs for the water company, the electricity company and the ayuntamiento are still broken.

Steve

Manchesteral
Resident
Posts: 1965
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Manchesteral » Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:46 pm

At the risk of being labelled "arrogant" I will say, is anyone out there listening ? for the past 4 years I have maintained a non residents account with Deutschebank, If you make 3 transactions of any description, direct debit, shopping or cash withdrawal your maintenance charges are zero.
Of course you will have to pay 30 euros per year for the non resident account fee, they have to register this with the tax authorites and therefore they are entitled to charge you as would any other bank. I recently obtained residency and now have free banking with Deutsche, even transferring substantial amounts from non E U banks does not attract extra fees, I will say again, is anyone listening to me ??

Paddy Pumpkin
Resident
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 12:06 pm
Location: Madrid

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Paddy Pumpkin » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:03 pm

Get N26 if does all of the above and you can avoid the 30 EUR fee for non resident or resident account, they don't differentiate.
Last edited by Paddy Pumpkin on Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ana de Chipiona
Tourist
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Location: El Puerto de Santa Maria

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Ana de Chipiona » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:00 pm

Thank you Steve, Paddy Pumpkin and also to Manchestral! As a non-resident the N26 sounds good.

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:25 pm

As a UK resident, I would prefer not to maintain a bank account in Spain. There is no legitimate reason why the utility companies and the ayuntamiento cannot continue to collect payments from my Starling Euro account by SEPA direct debit.

As a fallback option, I have set up a Wise (formerly TransferWise) multi-currency account. Although not a true bank account, it accepts SEPA direct debits using a Belgian (BE) IBAN. This overcomes the UK address problem that I outlined above. Wise is a UK company, authorised by the FCA.

Paddy Pumpkin
Resident
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 12:06 pm
Location: Madrid

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Paddy Pumpkin » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:59 pm

I fully agree that you shouldn't be forced to have a bank account in Spain. In fact EU law backs this up to some extent.

The problem you will run into is some Spanish companies only accept direct debits with Spanish IBAN. This is legal as it is only public bodies that are forced to not discriminate and they cannot make you have an account in a given country. As I mentioned before be careful as to how and how much the UK banks will charge you. Since they left the EU they are no longer obliged to do it for free.

What that means is the Hacienda only accepts Spanish bank accounts, which is illegal. It will be a brave person who reports the Hacienda to the EU over this as you will almost be guaranteed the most excruciating audit on regular basis and they will always find something to get you for.

So what I ended up doing is maintaining a free bank account in Spain to which I feed the minimal amount of money to pay bills and use it for nothing else. I have zero trust and confidence in Spanish banks, especially their customer service.

Screagle
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:38 pm
Location: UK / 11540

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Screagle » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:26 am

@steve_w, do let us know how you get on with Wise (Transferwise) and their multi-currency account.

I'm currently on free banking with a high street Spanish bank saving 12 euros a month but that requires a monthly deposit and three direct debits per quarter. I currently only use Wise for monthly transfers between UK and Spain to fulfil minimum depost requirements in both countries. Let's see how the multi-currency account pans out...

Saludos

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:57 am

Article 9, part 2, of EU Regulation No 260/2012 states: "A payee accepting a credit transfer or using a direct debit to collect funds from a payer holding a payment account located within the Union shall not specify the Member State in which that payment account is to be located, provided that the payment account is reachable in accordance with Article 3."

In effect, this means that any Spanish body, public or private, cannot stipulate that it will only accept a Spanish IBAN for direct debit payments.

However, the EPC list of Countries in the SEPA Schemes' Geographical Scope (EPC409-09) states: "It is assumed that legislation adopted for the EEA (including Regulation (EU) No 260/2012) only fully and directly applies to payment transactions between institutions located within the EU and the EEA."

So, it could be argued that Article 9 of EU Regulation No 260/2012 no longer applies to SEPA direct debit transactions involving a UK bank. In other words, Spanish utility companies and ayuntamientos could perhaps argue that they are no longer obliged to accept a UK IBAN.

To me, adopting such an attitude seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. If they want to continue to receive payments smoothly and promptly, they only have to make a very minor adjustment (ie add my UK address) to the direct debit collection data that they send to their bank.

Also, the Criteria for Participation in the SEPA Schemes for communities of banks or financial institutions outside the European Economic Area (EEA) (EPC061-14) state: "The EPC recognises that a challenge to the level playing field principle arises where SEPA Scheme Participants in EU and EEA countries are eligible for waivers or other special benefits under European Directives or Regulations but which would be unavailable to Scheme Participants in non-EEA countries."

Spanish banks may say that this last statement means that it is acceptable for them to charge higher fees for receiving SEPA credit transfers from a UK bank account. In reality, it should cost them no more to receive a transfer from a UK bank than it does to receive one from a French, German or even Spanish bank.

Perhaps that explains why I would prefer not to maintain a bank account in Spain.

User avatar
firsttango
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:34 pm
Location: Velez-Malaga

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby firsttango » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:59 am

Transferwise multi currency account has been very good in the6 months I've had it. Like that you can hold funds in both EU and Sterling and can pick n choose when you wish to exchange and move monies. Also great to have a card that debits purchases automatically from the currency of the country where you are using it.

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:17 am

Screagle wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:26 am @steve_w, do let us know how you get on with Wise (Transferwise) and their multi-currency account.
Hi Screagle -

I'm still trying to get the various organisations to modify their systems so that I can continue paying by SDD from my Starling account.

The water company tells me that it has now done so, and my next payment, which is due at the end of this week, should go through without any problem. I guess that I'll find out shortly whether or not that's true.

I've actually been in dialogue with the Spanish software company that developed and hosts the tax system for the ayuntamiento. The company's quality director has told me that they've logged an incident concerning the system's inability to accept a UK address for the bank account holder, and will be updating the system to correct this. I don't have a timeframe for the update, though.

Dealing with the electricity company has been a total nightmare. I've opened 6 or 7 customer service requests, only for them to be closed a few days later without any resolution. I've had several online chats with their representatives, and sent them numerous email messages. I feel that I am just going round and round in circles. Meanwhile, I'm paying the electricity bills online using a debit card.

So, I'm holding the Wise multi-currency account in reserve for the time being.

Steve

Manchesteral
Resident
Posts: 1965
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Manchesteral » Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:11 pm

Paddy Pumpkin wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:03 pm Get N26 if does all of the above and you can avoid the 30 EUR fee for non resident or resident account, they don't differentiate.

But you cannot walk into your local branch and discuss things !

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:48 pm

For a non-resident, like myself, that isn't very important. During my sixteen years as a customer of CaixaBank, I've only ever been to the branch to discuss things when they've overcharged me or made some other mistake. Even then, they've usually been more interested in selling me something that I don't need, like insurance or a loan, than in sorting out the problem.

If I can do without a Spanish bank account altogether, then all of that hassle goes away. If there's a problem with my Starling Euro account, I can deal with it in the UK, in English. If absolutely necessary, I can escalate the matter to a UK-based ombudsman service.

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:04 pm

steve_w wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:17 am The water company tells me that it has now done so, and my next payment, which is due at the end of this week, should go through without any problem. I guess that I'll find out shortly whether or not that's true.
It was true.

If only the electricity company would take notice of what I'm trying to tell them. :(

Paddy Pumpkin
Resident
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 12:06 pm
Location: Madrid

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Paddy Pumpkin » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:51 am

steve_w wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:57 am Article 9, part 2, of EU Regulation No 260/2012 states: "A payee accepting a credit transfer or using a direct debit to collect funds from a payer holding a payment account located within the Union shall not specify the Member State in which that payment account is to be located, provided that the payment account is reachable in accordance with Article 3."

In effect, this means that any Spanish body, public or private, cannot stipulate that it will only accept a Spanish IBAN for direct debit payments.

However, the EPC list of Countries in the SEPA Schemes' Geographical Scope (EPC409-09) states: "It is assumed that legislation adopted for the EEA (including Regulation (EU) No 260/2012) only fully and directly applies to payment transactions between institutions located within the EU and the EEA."

So, it could be argued that Article 9 of EU Regulation No 260/2012 no longer applies to SEPA direct debit transactions involving a UK bank. In other words, Spanish utility companies and ayuntamientos could perhaps argue that they are no longer obliged to accept a UK IBAN.

To me, adopting such an attitude seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. If they want to continue to receive payments smoothly and promptly, they only have to make a very minor adjustment (ie add my UK address) to the direct debit collection data that they send to their bank.

Also, the Criteria for Participation in the SEPA Schemes for communities of banks or financial institutions outside the European Economic Area (EEA) (EPC061-14) state: "The EPC recognises that a challenge to the level playing field principle arises where SEPA Scheme Participants in EU and EEA countries are eligible for waivers or other special benefits under European Directives or Regulations but which would be unavailable to Scheme Participants in non-EEA countries."

Spanish banks may say that this last statement means that it is acceptable for them to charge higher fees for receiving SEPA credit transfers from a UK bank account. In reality, it should cost them no more to receive a transfer from a UK bank than it does to receive one from a French, German or even Spanish bank.

Perhaps that explains why I would prefer not to maintain a bank account in Spain.

I totally agree with your understanding of the laws concerened. You are going through a process I went through in 2017. I took up the matter with the EU as I was having problems enforcing the law. I received the following reply

'''EU law provides for the principle of non-discrimination on grounds of nationality or residence (Articles 18 et seq. of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU). It also provides for the free movement of capital (Art. 63 et seq. TFEU).
Accordingly, public bodies cannot discriminate citizens on grounds that they hold a bank account in another EU Member State. That could entail a restriction of the free movement of citizens and a restriction of the free movement of capital, confining all transaction with the administration to the Spanish territory.
It is therefore advisable to lodge a complaint before the European Commission or, alternatively, to contact the SOLVIT network, an online mechanism free of charge:
http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_es.htm'''


So everyone is in agreement yourself, myself and the EU. However enforcing that law proved too difficult and as I said I won't be the one to take the case to the EU. There is a link in the text above should you wish to pursue it. It would make my life and the operations of my businesses infintely easier if this was enforced. I am forced to operate accounts in 6 EU countries when I really only need one.

I did have one small success and that was becasue the entity that was making the payments itslef was a financial instituition and therefore subject to regulation by the financial regulator. I suggested that I would ask the regulator about this and they hanged their opinion. THey had to make a system change to enable their system to make and take the payments cross border and it took a further six months for it to be actioned but we got there.

Regarding Spanish banks....I totally agree, they are the worst I have come across worldwide. I only operate an account here because i am forced to for the payments of personal items. I tried to avoid it but couldn't. I keep the minimal amount possible in the accounts and use them for nothing other than direct debits.

If you have any luck please let me know

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:58 pm

Paddy Pumpkin wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:51 am There is a link in the text above should you wish to pursue it.
Unfortunately, the SOLVIT website says: "The United Kingdom left the SOLVIT network on 31 December 2020. As a result, SOLVIT can no longer assist UK nationals in European Union member countries or EU nationals in the UK."

Paddy Pumpkin
Resident
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 12:06 pm
Location: Madrid

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Paddy Pumpkin » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:42 pm

You can pursue it directly with the European Commission

https://ec.europa.eu/solvit/info/uk_en.htm

UK citizens’ EU rights in the EU
→ you can report a breach of your rights to the European Commission.

steve_w
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: West Berkshire, UK

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby steve_w » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:32 am

Paddy Pumpkin wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:42 pm You can pursue it directly with the European Commission
Ah, sorry, I didn't see that page.

However, as I mentioned before, my problem isn't that Spanish entities are refusing to accept my UK IBAN. It's that they can't, or won't, comply with the new requirement (from 01 Jan 2021) to include my UK address in the direct debit collection data that they send to their bank.

After some perseverance, I've now managed to persuade all but the ayuntamiento and the electricity company to make the necessary changes.

I think that I might have found a way around the problem with the ayuntamiento by 'rearranging' my address details slightly to fit the direct debit mandate webform. I'll find out whether that works in a couple of weeks or so.

The electricity company (name begins with 'E') has stubbornly refused even to acknowledge that there's a problem. Since late January, I've opened no fewer than 10 customer service requests and complaints. Each one has been closed a few days later with the response that the existing direct debit mandate has been set up correctly. Meanwhile, the direct debit collection has failed for three months in a row.

As a friend (who's a resident) told me: "Spanish businesses simply used to ignore complaints. Now they just pretend that they've been resolved and close them."

Paddy Pumpkin
Resident
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 12:06 pm
Location: Madrid

Re: New CaixaBank fees ... time to change banks?

Postby Paddy Pumpkin » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:10 pm

Have any of the DD gone through from a UK bank yet? Did they charge you?
I know some are now charging for SEPA payments based on comments I have seen on other threads.

I had a similar problem to you with an insurance company, back and forth when I offered banks accounts in the EURO zone to pay my premium.
In the end I had no choice but to get a Spanish bank account for them....and also the Hacienda. So I now use that for all my Spanish bills...it was just easier.

It's a flagrant breach of the law but I don't know who will enforce it.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests