Taking the plunge!

Do you have a query on how to get things done in Andalucia, where to find things, who to call? Find out by posting and hear about others experiences.
Free at Last
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Free at Last » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:08 pm

Unicorn wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:59 pm

I am unsure as to whom 'Katy' refers to those 'making up their qualifications on the plane'. The teachers in language schools here who teach Spanish are mostly, if not all, indiginous. From whence they have arrived by plane, enabling them to invent qualifications en route is a mystery. It would be sensible I think, to go to an actual Spanish person to learn Spanish, wouldn't it?

My Spanish teacher in a local language school was certainly a native Spaniard and never spoke any English in class (I would not have wanted to learn from anyone who wasn't) - the owner of the school was French and did not teach Spanish herself. They employed a native English speaker to teach English.

In my experience it is those who make a living providing services to the people who have not learned enough Spanish to be able to deal with Spanish businesses or tradespeople who are the most likely to have reinvented themselves and their qualifications by the time they arrive at the airport here.

Like yourself, I have helped some Spanish school students with their English and I don't think they teach English much better here than the English schools I attended taught foreign languages. I took French A level and would never say that I could actually speak French, although I remember a fair bit of it and can understand written French.

Neither I nor, as far as I can see from any of their contributions to the thread, any of the others who have commented have claimed to be fluent in Spanish. My aim was purely to become competent enough to deal with everyday situations independently and be able to communicate with the people I live amongst. To become fluent I think you really need to be in a total immersion setting for a long period of time, and those like myself who do not work with Spanish colleagues or have children attending Spanish schools are not going to achieve that.
Last edited by Free at Last on Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

katy
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby katy » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:12 pm

Kids translating for their Parents happens all the time in the UK. Gov. Depts and NHS have information in about 15+ languages so it is not just a British thing. Majority who move to the Costas are Pensioners and at 65/70 may not be interested in learning. Also some aren’t even proficient in their own language.
Sobre gustos no hay disputa

Unicorn
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:22 pm

How on earth is that relevant? Did I say it did not happen elsewhere?
I'm waiting for a delivery so am happy to counter your errrr....comments.
But when it lilfe restarts, I'll join it. Good idea, yeah?

Honestly, what happened to 'speechless'?

Unicorn
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:42 pm

Yes Free, you understand the point I was making. Obviously some willfully care to not do so.

I agree with you about the services that are on offer to those without Spanish. Estate agents, who often miraculously have a lawyer brother, accountant cousin blah blah blah.

I am sure we have all watched the programmes where one's heart sinks at the words ' we put our life savings into the bar/kite surfing/whatever business' in which they invariably have had no previous experience. The they rely on these often dodgy services to deal with the inevitable red tape. (Yes, we know they have red tape, good British world beating tape in Britain as well, before it is pointed out!)
Then there is the 'the estate agent said the extension was no problem and of course we could put in a pool and and an extra storey on'. And there is a strange trust put in compatriots, trust just because they are British (often proven trust misplaced). I have bumped into people who have tried to give me keys to their property, to keep an eye on it, not knowing me from Adam. I obviously refuse but it cannot be just me.

katy
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby katy » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:57 pm

Unicorn wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:22 pm How on earth is that relevant? Did I say it did not happen elsewhere?
I'm waiting for a delivery so am happy to counter your errrr....comments.
But when it lilfe restarts, I'll join it. Good idea, yeah?

Honestly, what happened to 'speechless'?
YOU bile in every reference to me :thumbdown: And you’re off topic!

olive
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby olive » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:31 pm

We have had the children of Spanish friends with us for “ English lessons” . Worked fine for conversations. Where it fell down was when the students have set pieces with words missing but a clue e.g. gerund or past pluperfect. Who knows what they are. ( Rhetorical question) . We stopped at that level. Suzy Dent explained some unwritten grammatical rules the other day. One was the order in which words appear in something like lovely little Miss riding hood. Most of us are never taught that but just intuitively pick it up.

I agree that living in the campo isn’t great for practising your Spanish. If you see someone else the conversation tends to always be along the same lines( low price of olives, lack of rain, )

I sometimes cannot remember the English word for things. Don’t know whether that is good or just a sign of age.

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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:01 pm

Good grief!

elusive
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby elusive » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:34 pm

pluperfect
-----------
Seriously is that a word!?? :crazy: :shifty: ive never heard of that in my life :lol:

Ok ive googled it and in still like :shock:

That's the thing with verbs when its your native language you learn thee language as a child but you dont know what verbs etc are until you do them in school (if you are lucky or unlucky!). You just speak the language and thats it. It starts getting confusing when they start explaining this is a x verb etc etc.. most important thing i learnt is dont ask why is something a certain way. As in most cases there is no reason it just is! :lol:

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Wicksey
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Wicksey » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:56 pm

My French lessons were as described by others. Constant learning of verbs and tenses and whilst I could write a wonderful essay I couldn't speak it very well. Here I tend to stick to only a couple of past tenses and the rest of the really complicated tenses I bypass. Trying to learn all of them would take more than a lifetime, plus when you speak your native language you do not break it down into what tenses you are using as it comes naturally. My FIL is truly fluent in French, growing up in Paris with English parents. Although he had to flee during the war, he has always kept it up and speaks it like a native. French people ask him what part of France he is from, and he is constantly listening to French radio. When he moved to England as a young teenager he spoke English with a French accent. That's the time to learn a language, to grow up and be fully immersed amongst the locals.

I think we are digressing slightly, but I'm enjoying the discussion! It is all relevant to living here.

Pamela1
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Pamela1 » Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:06 pm

olive wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:31 pm

I sometimes cannot remember the English word for things. Don’t know whether that is good or just a sign of age.
Snap Olive, OTH has the same struggles with remembering Spanish words at times, perhaps a mixture of age and the lack of speaking ( in his case) Spanish on a regular basis also accounts for some of the problems. He also struggles with new words in Spanish, i sometimes hear him ask what do you mean i don't understand the word ?? . Mostly happens with new products and especially anything related to the digital era which was non existent in his daily life during the years he was living in Spain.
On another note, i do recommend anyone to take advantage of classes, if only to help with writing, spelling and reading. Ok Spanish is probably much easier to understand than English in the written form but the more you can be independent when in another country the better you will fare. OTH never went to classes, they didn't exist in our area here in the Uk and when they eventually did his work pattern didn't fit in with class times. The result is that he does very little admin work and it sits on my lap, it is what it is but i would certainly not want to be an English couple abroad where one half manages everything official and the other struggles, what happens if something were to happen to the one who has always taken care of everything and the one who struggles is left to get on with it and doesn't have the first clue what they are doing. i think there will be many people out there in exactly that situation. Learn as much as you can.

katy
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby katy » Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:57 pm

Pamela lots of words change in decades. A friend who has been in Hong Kong all his life until retirement uses words that are more or less obsolete in English. I think my Spanish is the same, not street wise. When I did a year at Sevilla University there were about 15 of us Brits and some of them really struggled even though they had decent A level passes.

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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Miro » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:07 pm

casita-bonita wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 am...until we started attending spanish classes that i discovered what a gerund is.
Ah, gracias a Dios for the gerund :lol: my favourite Spanish construction! Avoids the need to learn any different verb endings. Of course, it's use is far less common in Spanish than English and you're not going to fool any native speaker into thinking you're speaking some rare Latin American dialect, but it's the effort that counts and you can get by surprisingly well using it.

We had been in Spain only a few days when OH (who already spoke Spanish fairly well) sent me to the supermarket to get some queso fresco. I was feeling pretty pleased with myself that I got all the way there without forgetting how to say queso fresco, and was then mortified when the assistant asked me sin o con sal, and I had absolutely no idea what she was asking :oops: I came home empty handed - and vowed from that moment to make an effort to never embarass myself so utterly and completely again! After 20 years, albeit far from fluent, I think I can hold my head high and cope with most situations without making a total fool of myself :thumbup:

Four years back in UK now, and still can't help using certain Spanish words for which the English equivalents just don't seem right: trastero, toldo, rejas...
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markwilding
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby markwilding » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:54 pm

Although I live in an area with few English speakers, I tend to speak English most of the time. My wife has a degree in English and speaks it fluently so I have always spoken English at home and I my job means I speak English most off the time. I do speak Spanish in most other situations though

I consider myself to be fluent in Spanish but still know I have limitations.. In my opinion what is important is effort and to use whatever has been learnt no matter how basic. I bet I make some sort of grammar or pronunciation error in every other sentence but i don't care because fluency, meaning I don't need to think before I say something, helps me to understand what others are telling me because I'm not thinking while listening.


On the one hand people can chose if they want to learn Spanish but on the other I can criticise them for what I see is a wasted opportunity to learn a language and even more importantly locals will appreciate the effort and most will make an effort to engage themselves. This can result in less problems with the administration and other basic needs of Spanish life.

I have met certain individuals who have boasted that they do not speak Spanish even though they have lived here years, As I said it is their choice but I can't help my opinion either,, which is not very favourable so my advice to anyone taking the plunge, try to do a Spanish course and use anything you learn as soon as possible without worrying about what others say should you make a mistake.

Pamela1
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Pamela1 » Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:38 pm

katy wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:57 pm Pamela lots of words change in decades. A friend who has been in Hong Kong all his life until retirement uses words that are more or less obsolete in English. I think my Spanish is the same, not street wise. When I did a year at Sevilla University there were about 15 of us Brits and some of them really struggled even though they had decent A level passes.
I can understand how people do struggle to learn, for me it's the grammar, i get bored and very tired quickly, i tend to listen and pick up sentences and i can hold some kind of conversation but i know i'm making mistakes. The first few days i'm away i sense that my language skills are very rusty and i feel nervous and tend to hold back, my family get annoyed with me because they know i am holding back. After a few days i'm ok but i know i will never be fluent, i'm happy that i can get by but of course i'd prefer to know the language better.

Miro.....I sent OTH to the corner shop for some eggs and the middle aged couple who owned the shop had such a laugh, they are gone now but they never stopped talking about it over the years. They hadn't a clue what he was saying and after much confusion he resorted to moving his arms and making a clucking sound...They screamed with laughter much to his beaming red face :oops: they thought he wanted to buy a chicken and it became more confusing until they took out a pen and paper, the penny finally dropped after he drew an egg. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Paddy Pumpkin » Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:45 pm

elusive wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:34 pm pluperfect
-----------
Seriously is that a word!?? :crazy: :shifty: ive never heard of that in my life :lol:

Ok ive googled it and in still like :shock:

That's the thing with verbs when its your native language you learn thee language as a child but you dont know what verbs etc are until you do them in school (if you are lucky or unlucky!). You just speak the language and thats it. It starts getting confusing when they start explaining this is a x verb etc etc.. most important thing i learnt is dont ask why is something a certain way. As in most cases there is no reason it just is! :lol:
It very much depends the language. I grew up speaking 3 languages and I agree with you for English there is not sufficient grammar to really merit spending hours learning grammar, you will pick it up by the time you go to school.

However other languages it is not so simple. I speak a language with 21 tenses and vast use of genitive nouns (words that change depending on the other words in the sentence), there is no way you will learn this language without studying even as a native a speaker. I learned it natively but had to attend classes and study to learn it properly.

If you speak to native Spanish speakers they will tell you about how they learn grammar in a structured way at school. Hence when a native Spanish speaker learns English they will ask for the grammar to be structured in the same way as they had it in Spanish.

markwilding
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby markwilding » Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:47 pm

Of topic I know but while we are talking about ' Lost in Translation' .

When we first married we used to take in English learning students from Japan. We were sat having diner when my wife and the girl were talking about typical food in Spain and Japan. The girl said 'Lice' was very usual fare in Japan. I knew what she meant but my wife assumed she meant the insect

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Wicksey
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Wicksey » Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:36 pm

Years ago a dear friend was in the local builder's merchants and tried to strike up a conversation by asking when the new road (carretera) behind the yard was due to open. The conversation went on for some time with the shopkeeper not understanding and becoming quite puzzled. Then he suddenly saw the light, went out the back and came back with a shiny new wheelbarrow (carretilla).

I think my problem is that I worry I am going to make mistakes and then spend too long trying to conjugate verbs. We used to have long conversations with our Spanish neighbours when we first moved here. They were about our age and very understanding and I think I just used to go for it without worrying so much as I do now.

Pamela1
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Pamela1 » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:10 pm

Just keep going for it Wicksey :wave:
BTW how is your leg? Have you got the problem sorted? Off topic but i think the thread went that way some time ago. :mrgreen:

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Wicksey
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Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Wicksey » Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:56 am

I'll PM you Pamela .... my leg is a bit way off topic I think :lol:


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