Taking the plunge!

Do you have a query on how to get things done in Andalucia, where to find things, who to call? Find out by posting and hear about others experiences.
Paddy Pumpkin
Resident
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 12:06 pm
Location: Madrid

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Paddy Pumpkin » Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:42 pm

I fully understand as I also have a house in Andalucia and spend about 45% of my time here. I had to learn two languages when I moved to Spain and now I can adjust my accent and lexicon to each location. Andalucían was much more difficult to learn than the Castellano spoke in Madrid.

My point is though if you don't adjust to the local way of life and maybe adjust hobbies then you will spend life living on the edge of society never fully able to mix. I used to play badminton but took up padel instead simply because it was more widely played.

I lived in Asia but left because I could never fully mix with the full society...so I was limited to mixing with just 10% of the residents. 90% of the people I saw each day had nothing in common with me and me with them. Hence when I came to Spain I made it my number 1 priority to mix with only Spaniards and take up Spanish past times. Yes at the beginning I had little in common but month by month that changed and it was really helped by living in a city surrounded by Spanish people my own age. Hence my advice to anyone young moving to Spain, don't live in the campo and don't live in an area full of retired foreigners....you won't find anyone that you have much in common with.

katy
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 13752
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby katy » Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:46 pm

Maybe try using Spanish fora/Facebook etc. :mrgreen:

Unicorn
Resident
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: Estepona

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:55 pm

I would advise anyone actually wanting to speak at least converstaional Spanish to take themselves off, on their own, to somewhere and do 2 weeks in a school living with a Spanish family. Once you get to the point of being able to have a conversation the only way is up. But one or two lessons a week do not do it.
I have seen countless people start by doing some classes and then give up and stick to the Brit communities and clubs. They have a smattering of words, generally including 'mañana' and 'cerveza' and wonder why they do not integrate. Other foreigners seem to grasp Spanish much better than the English.
Having had the Empire is often blamed, but I was bought up in an ex-colony and we all learnt the local language.
Personally I do not mix at all with Brits, not purposefully by because I do not like the various activities and clubs they offer. And I have been criticised in the past for speaking Spanish (???)
But Spain is now my adopted country. I help some kids and adults with English and have become great friends with the parents and my neighbours are mostly OK as well. On the whole I find the Spanish I meet friendly and kind, I am always getting offers to get driven to hospital or help with other things (whether I need them or not!).
It must be odd to live here and not understand what is going on around you and relying on the sometimes somewhat unscrupulous Brits who make a living out of 'helping' the non-Spanish speaking Brits.

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3275
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby elusive » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:34 am

Some people are good at picking up languages. Others will struggle no matter how long they have lessons.unless you have a gift for it you really need to surround yourself in the language which is very hard if you live anywhere even slightly touristy.

Ive had lessons every school year since ive been here (my t.hall gives free classes via the junta). I can hold a conversation but my past tense verbs etc are pretty terrible and if can understand say 65% of whats been said to me i can guess the rest !!. If I had a euro for every person mainly brits ive seen start classes and leave after 5 minutes over the last 7 years without giving it a go I'd be rich. Most of them imo just join inorder to find and increase their circle of clicky english speaking friends and their motives for joining arent to try and learn even the basics of the language. But to see which newbies are worth being friends with.

I do think its harder for brits to learn as languages have never been taught properly in the uk and i know so many germans,scandies dutch, etc etc who speak 3,4 languages pretty fluently. Its the norm to them and having similar languages helps.if you know 2 languages its easier to learn another Its not a scary thing,which i think alot of brits see it as.
Last edited by elusive on Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

casita-bonita
Resident
Posts: 1202
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:32 pm
Location: Sayalonga,

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby casita-bonita » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 am

What elusive says about english not being taught properly in the uk. It wasn't until we started attending spanish classes that i discovered what a gerund is. And i have an english O level from a grammar school..

Totally agree that once you have a couple of languages under your belt then additional languages become simpler to absorb since groups of them are similar. Unlike english which stands pretty much on it's own and is pretty much useless for transitioning to another language.
Regards

Bob

User avatar
Wicksey
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5879
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:21 pm
Location: Axarquia coast

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Wicksey » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:00 am

Elusive I agree with what you have said. We have made an effort to learn Spanish but we still struggle with it. It is true that living in the campo with no near neighbours does hinder things. If we were in an urban area (which we would never choose to live in), then we would probably converse much more with the neighbours and have more confidence, which is now lacking. We don't go out every day so for the majority of time we don't speak to anyone else at all. When we do go out then it is mainly for shopping in the big supermarkets and the occasional meal (always Spanish places), so we don't have much opportunity to mix.

When we first moved to Spain we had Spanish neighbours who we used to visit and, importantly, they were patient with us. If we didn't understand they would say things a different way or try to explain a word. It works both ways, and we have come across people who just give up and if we don't immediately understand their very strong Andaluz, they walk away.

We both learned French at school up to O level and I think that helps you understand how a language is constructed. I also did Latin for two years. I hated languages at school and preferred science /maths related things and some of us just don't have the brain wired for languages I don't think. When we lived in France I admit we coped a lot better, and I guess what we learned in our youth was still somewhere there in the depths of our grey matter! I did often used to speak a mix of French and Spanish - I'm afraid I'm not one of those lucky people who can switch between languages. The older I get the more I struggle and loss of confidence is a bit problem now.

User avatar
chrissiehope
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3668
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 7:52 pm
Location: Cheshire & near Antequera

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby chrissiehope » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:32 pm

Many moons ago I spent 4 years living in Manila in the Philippines. It was a very class-oriented expat comunity, where generally (with a few encouraging exeptions) staff (cooks,maids, nannies drivers, etc) were treated as second class citzens. So when I mentioned I was trying to learn Tagalog (local language very similar to Filipino) I would get incredulous looks & "whatever for ?!". But to me, I wanted to know what the roadsigns said (& the graffiti !), and to my endless regret the driver refused to teach me any swear words :-) . We treated our staff with respect, paying for our cook & keeping her job open, while she underwent treatment for TB.
Anyway, when we came to Spain, I found that tho' a lot of the vocab was spelt differently, a lot sounded exactly the same. Most of my Tagalog has faded now,but I can still start a conversation with a Filipina nurse here in UK & sing large chunks of the National Anthem & other popular songs :-)
Alexandr for President (Squire for PM !)

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read (Groucho Marx)

Unicorn
Resident
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: Estepona

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:55 pm

Maybe there is something in that some people cannot learn languages very well. But it is presumably not beyond anyone to learn a few sentences like 'I'm sorry I do not speak much Spanish'. Or maybe scribble down a few words and sentences that may come in handy in that shop or service. Just walking in and speaking in a foreign language (English) seems very arrogant if not a bit ignorant. I do not think I have even come across a German/Scandinavian/Dutch etc person doing that. I even remember some people coming off a building site grumbling that the builders did not speak any English.
I have known of people here 20 years who still walk into a shop and ask if they speak English. 20 years, for Heaven's sake.
I also hear of people saying they miss 'the (English) culture'!! Yeah, that's right, Spain has none of its own.
This guy I bumped into the other day saying how much he hates it here, complaining about problems getting the TIE, how rude the Spanish are.
He had apparently been here for well over half a decade, maybe he should ask himself why, in his opinion, he thinks people are rude. I did ask why he hadn't applied for the TIE earlier, but apparently he thought it was better to wait till now.

You have to wonder why some people stay if they hate the place so much. Complain all the time about everything, but happy to waltz up and use the health service.....

It's like the people under the radar who work on the black, remain unregistered, but still think they are the backbone of the Spanish economy.

El Cid
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 16058
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:42 pm
Location: La Herradura, Costa Tropical, Granada

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby El Cid » Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:56 pm

You are quite right but help is at hand! The latest Apple Translate app allows you to speak in English and have the phone speak the translation in Spanish. The response in Spanish is directly translated and spoken in English.

For those that cannot cope with speaking Spanish, and also in tricky situations like in hospital or with your doctor, this could be a huge help.

The health service tried a system using a remote translation centre where with a pair of phones you could do much the same but that didn’t come to anything. With this app all you need is one phone.

Sid

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3275
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby elusive » Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:43 pm

Unicorn wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:55 pm Maybe there is something in that some people cannot learn languages very well. But it is presumably not beyond anyone to learn a few sentences like 'I'm sorry I do not speak much Spanish'. Or maybe scribble down a few words and sentences that may come in handy in that shop or service. Just walking in and speaking in a foreign language (English) seems very arrogant if not a bit ignorant. I do not think I have even come across a German/Scandinavian/Dutch etc person doing that. I even remember some people coming off a building site grumbling that the builders did not speak any English.
I have known of people here 20 years who still walk into a shop and ask if they speak English. 20 years, for Heaven's sake.
I also hear of people saying they miss 'the (English) culture'!! Yeah, that's right, Spain has none of its own.
This guy I bumped into the other day saying how much he hates it here, complaining about problems getting the TIE, how rude the Spanish are.
He had apparently been here for well over half a decade, maybe he should ask himself why, in his opinion, he thinks people are rude. I did ask why he hadn't applied for the TIE earlier, but apparently he thought it was better to wait till now.

You have to wonder why some people stay if they hate the place so much. Complain all the time about everything, but happy to waltz up and use the health service.....

It's like the people under the radar who work on the black, remain unregistered, but still think they are the backbone of the Spanish economy.
Very true unicorn. What you say about some brits living here for years and not even learning the very basics was mentioned in my spanish class. A belgium fellow student brought up how they have brit neighbours who go into the local shop and will just come out and start asking for things in English. Dont even attempt spanish and they have been here decades. As brits we all know what some brits are like and complain about them ourselves but to hear someone of another nationalilty bring it up,well it was embarrassing but we agreed with her. She congratulated the brits in the class for actually coming to and "trying" to learn unlike so many others!! I think some brits have the old superiority complex of everyone can speak english we still own half the world ( err maybe we dont anymore!)

Like you say everyone can learn even the basics. Even some of my older family members have learnt the very basics while others dont know anything other than which t.v channel Gol is on!. But some people say "learn" the language" but its really not that easy unless you have a nack for it. So many say to me I thought i'd be fluent by now! Yeah didnt we all!! It also depends on how talkative/social you are. I know people that will just make up conversation with the girl in the shop or the barman but i'm not like that and as wicksey says even though you live in spain sometimes theres not that mny opportunities in day to day life to really use it a large amount unless you are out going.

Free at Last
Resident
Posts: 1911
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:32 pm
Location: Velez-Malaga

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Free at Last » Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:23 pm

What helped me more than anything to improve my conversational skills, when learning Spanish, was doing an intercambio. Mine was set up by the language school I was going to for lessons, the owner said they had a Spanish student who was learning English and would benefit from more practice, and asked if I'd be interested in helping him. I jumped at the chance and the school gave us a room to meet in two evenings a week, when we would speak in Spanish for half the time and then switch to English, or vice versa. Obviously you need to get to a point where you can at least hold up a basic conversation in order to benefit from an intercambio, but it did give me the chance to have real, in-depth conversations about all kinds of subjects, and as has been said it isn't always easy to be able to do that with neighbours and acquaintances, or people you have business or official transactions with.

When we moved here I was determined I would learn Spanish as I would hate to be in a situation where I couldn't, for example, understand letters sent to me or be able to read the newspaper to find out about the issues of the day, or cope with things like medical appointments or things that need to be done at the Ayuntamiento or other public offices. I don't want to have to take someone with me everywhere I go and explain to me what's being said, it would make me feel like a child. On several occasions Spanish people have expressed surprise that I speak Spanish and have commented on the fact that many British people living here do not, one lady complained that she couldn't speak with her neighbour who had lived next door for 12 years but spoke no Spanish at all.

One English man, when complaining to me about the fact that people could not communicate with him in English at the Ayuntamiento, said "you're lucky, you can speak Spanish". I pointed out that luck had nothing to do with it but a sizeable investment in time, effort and money spent on classes did. His response was that when he moved here he had "other priorities". Says it all, really.

User avatar
Wicksey
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5879
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:21 pm
Location: Axarquia coast

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Wicksey » Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:54 pm

Learning the lingo is very important when living abroad even if, like me, it doesn't come easily. We had a year of private lessons when first moving here which was a good start, although we had been picking up a fair bit as we bought our house 4 years earlier and were regular visitors. I would imagine the OP already has a grounding as he already has a house here.

I can't understand how people live here not knowing anything. It's like being blind and deaf, not understanding anything. I've also knew someone that lived here years but he used to just go into a shop and speak English to them. This was 15 years ago when few in our pueblo spoke any. I still hear it sometimes now, and cringe when they don't even have the decency to ask if they hablás inglés. There's no excuse for not knowing the Spanish for the veg and items they buy every week in the supermarket when you live here either. I have quite a large Spanish vocabulary and can read it fairly well, it's just formulating sentences particularly when caught on the hop. I can cope with my Dr's phone appointment because I've had time to prepare.

I did once have a some intercambio which is certainly very useful. I now have half an hour of practice each time I have my haircut, but she is from Barcelona and speaks Spanish very clearly. She's young and patient, and it's nice to chat about things in general. Having hearing problems, I now struggle as people have masks on and I really cannot hear what is being said, which doesn't help.

katy
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 13752
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby katy » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:39 pm

I am speechless, a gaggle if Brits who do not speak Spanish fluent criticising other Brits on a BRITISH speaking forum. :lolno:

Unicorn
Resident
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: Estepona

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:14 pm

'A gaggle if(??) Brits'. How do you know if they are Brits? It is an English speaking forum. 'Spanish fluent'?
Where is the Daily Mail accompaniment?
'Speechless'-- Well every cloud, hey?

Unicorn
Resident
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: Estepona

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:56 pm

Is it against the rules to crisicise Brits who do not speak 'Spanish fluent' and only speak a language apparently known as 'British'?

Even though that was not even what was being said. The comments referred to Brits who, after decades, apparently speak no Spanish at all. Maybe they are baffling the Spanish by speaking a hitherto unknown language called 'British'.

Or is it only certain people who can complain or criticise?

katy
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 13752
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:45 pm

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby katy » Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:10 pm

Unicorn wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:56 pm Is it against the rules to crisicise Brits who do not speak 'Spanish fluent' and only speak a language apparently known as 'British'?


Or is it only certain people who can complain or criticise?
I reckon majority of those on this forum are the ones you are criticising. I was fluent before I lived there, not everyone has that advantage and some of those language “schools” on the coast are iffy. Made their qualifications up on the plane. I really would like to be a fly on the wall to hear some of these who are pontificating.

User avatar
Wicksey
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5879
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:21 pm
Location: Axarquia coast

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Wicksey » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:03 pm

I admit I am not 'fluent' but I can speak Spanish to a certain degree and understand a fair bit of written, and if I could get some practice I'm sure I would regain my confidence. I don't think any of us writing on this thread cannot speak a word. There is a big area of competence between being totally fluent and not speaking a word. As Unicorn said, the ones we are complaining about are those that have lived here years but know barely a single word of Spanish and often seem proud of the fact!

Some of us struggle with languages, it's just the way our brains are wired, like some are naturally musically talented, or good artists, whilst others are not. We all have our own strengths and weakness and it is nothing to do with intelligence. MY OH and I went to good schools (where I had to learn French and Latin) and we both have degrees, but we are just not natural linguists. However, we have tried to learn and do make an effort.

elusive
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3275
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am
Location: East of Malaga

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby elusive » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:56 pm

I doubt theres that many who are fluent. I know a brit who did it at A level in the uk worked in spanish speaking countries married a spaniard and moved to spain. That certainly helped them!!!. I know others who moved here 20-30 years ago and never had a lesson but learnt it as there were no other english speaking people around. But when i ask them about this that and the other verbs they dont have a clue what im on about.and openly say to me i'm no good with verbs. So heck they may be making loads of mistakes, i dont know but it certainly sounds good when they are jibbering away with the locals!! . Personally i wouldn't ever expect someone to become fluent as really fluency is a talent and certainly something i wouldnt ever reach. But aslong as i can make myself understood and can pretty much understand a reply and converse then i know thats probably as far as I'll get.

Its also alot harder for some when they are older. Just look at the young british kids who ARE fluent within a year of starting school. Or the huge amount of now british adults who came here as kids who when they speak spanish actually sound spanish. Still makes me laugh how a neighbour effortlessly switches between (is that even spanish!!andaluz) and then talks english in his south london accent. I joke to his mum that when he doesnt want her to know what hes talking about with his mates that he suddenly switches to spanish when on the phone

Totally agree we all have different talents and can pick up somethings better than others. Being an native english speaker is a disadvantage in the world interms of learning other languages. From schooling to geography etc etc.
Last edited by elusive on Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Unicorn
Resident
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: Estepona

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:59 pm

Exactly Wicksey.

I am unsure as to whom 'Katy' refers to those 'making up their qualifications on the plane'. The teachers in language schools here who teach Spanish are mostly, if not all, indiginous. From whence they have arrived by plane, enabling them to invent qualifications en route is a mystery. It would be sensible I think, to go to an actual Spanish person to learn Spanish, wouldn't it?

To go back to Wicksey, I have found that many English speaking British do not see any reason to learn Spanish, or insist they get by with their 70s sitcom idea of speaking to 'forriners'. They really do wear not knowing the language as 'a badge of pride'.

A friend of mine was translating in the health centre for years prior to Covid and often recounted tales of young children translating ailments of their parents/grandparents. Furthermore I have seen so many examples of families coming to live here, putting their children in Spanish schools and the kids speaking Spanish and the parents having no idea what they are up to. I would have thought if ever there was in incentive to learn a language it would be to understand your children and understand their lives.

Unicorn
Resident
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:06 pm
Location: Estepona

Re: Taking the plunge!

Postby Unicorn » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:12 pm

I agree Elusive. I think the important thing is to be able to communicate and making a grammatical mistake is not a hanging offence. I just say again, that what I cannot understand is when having been here for years there is no effort at all.

In fact, I help some Spanish kids out, particularly prior to exams, and it is very noticeable that the Spanish schools teach English grammar until they drown in it but virtually do no speaking at all. This is why so many Spanish kids and adults have to have extra lessons. Many have done upward of 10 years at school but can barely say a word. The same with French. I have seen them be given a list of vocabulary to learn, by heart, without the 'le' or 'la' attached to the words rendering the list useless.
But because English is so important (for many of the reasons hitherto stated!) and,of course, because the Germans, Dutch etc etc speak it, on the whole, many are very incentivised to learn to speak, for employment, if nothing else.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 54 guests