PLOT OF LAND WITH RUIN

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GRANVILLE
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PLOT OF LAND WITH RUIN

Postby GRANVILLE » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:55 pm

IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET PLANNING FOR A PLOT WITH A RUIN ON IT?
CAN YOU REFURBISH OR REBUILD TO ITS ORIGINAL FOOTPRINT?
Thanks. Granville

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Postby El Cid » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:24 pm

Under the present laws you can only reform a house if it has an intact roof. A ruin usually does not.

If you do have a roof then it is just possible that you might get a reform licence but you will only be able to copy the original structure and not extend it in any way.

Also if it is rustic land you may now be asked to provide proof that you are farming the land as a registered farmer.

Be very, very careful. Many agents are still trying to sell undersized plots with ruins on them with the promise of a licence. The law has changed very severely against this type of project fairly recently.

My advice would be to not even think about renovating or building on rustic land in Andalucia for the foreseeable future. If you do you are taking a huge risk and could easily lose all the money that you put into the project.

You could do it a few years ago but not any more.

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Postby telboy » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:03 pm

I recently met a guy who was coming out here to put a deposit on a piece of land with a ruin on it (inland). I arranged to see the ruin with him, I was concerned. because the agent he used said he could have a 3 bedroomed 2 storey house built on the foortprint for only 90,000euros. I advised him to get 2 building quotes before he parted with any money - his quotes came in at nearly 200,000euros - usually the actual cost is well above the original quote. I also advised him about the ruin with no roof issue, which would just add to the problem.

He contacted me and thanked me, unfortunately I hear the agent has sold the ruin on to someone else. Good Luck to them, they'll need it.

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Postby Nikvin » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:39 am

bit late posting in this thread, but here goes anyway

My understanding was that only a portion of the ruin has to still be roofed,
ie one entire room, for a reform licence (obra menor) to be granted; however this may of course purely be a particular ayuntamiento´s interpretation of this ruling.

Furthermore this raises a question as to roof repairs.

If a property (occupied, legal, etc) needs its roof repaired or replaced is this now going to require a proyecto because of these new regs

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Postby jpinks » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:47 am

Nikvin wrote:If a property (occupied, legal, etc) needs its roof repaired or replaced is this now going to require a proyecto because of these new regs
Yes
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Postby silver » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:33 am

There is a change in process at present where each town hall has made an proposition to the Junta de Andalucia.. ..its a long story..but soon each area will have their own rules...in some places it will be allowed to build 3/6 in a mini urbanization..on rural land that meets requirements.. most town hall will soon be able to inform of what can be done and where.
A friend has a new license (stamped by the Junta de Andalucia) to build a 3 bed plus villa on rural land without a ruin..so building is possible.
No muerdes la mano que te da de comer.

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Postby jpinks » Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:16 am

That is *very* interesting Silver - I'm going to check with our Ayuntemiento next week. It'll be interesting to see what their "approved" policy is.
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Postby El Cid » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:33 am

silver wrote:There is a change in process at present where each town hall has made an proposition to the Junta de Andalucia..
Are you talking about the propesed POT plan for the Axarquia?

If so I was under the impression that all the mayors are up in arms over the proposed restrictions suggested by the Junta and that it is months away from any agreement between the two sides.

Where did your friend get his licence and how big is the plot?

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Postby Beachcomber » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:46 am

I am in no position to dispute the information given by Silver but I can say that the result of enquires of municipal architects, on behalf of friends, at three different Town Halls in the Guadalhorce Valley in respect of building on rural plots was in words to the effect of 'absolutely no way, José'

Town Halls across the region are in the process of submitting their own versions of the PGOU to the Junta de Andalucía who have threatened to take over the administration of building applications totally from them.

Even local promoters who have, until now, been flouting the law by obtaining building licenses for sheds and making them, cosmetically at least, into houses are running scared and are no longer doing it.

However, local Spanish landowners who are only now beginning to realise the implications of the 2002 law which really only started to bite after the change of central government in last year's elections are expressing increasing dissatisfaction at the situation and feel that they have been disenfranchised by their regional government.

It will certainly be interesting to see the outcome.

nevada smith

Postby nevada smith » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:04 pm

hey, silver
you've made a statement about building on rural land -
someone has asked you a question about that -
do you have an answer or are you just flitting around from post to post
as it suits you?

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Postby Beachcomber » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:24 pm

No, we don't seem to have got to the bottom of this.

The only way I know of creating a small urbanisation on rural land is where a large plot of land which cannot legally be subdivided is fenced off internally to create the impression that it contains several smaller individual plots as in the example below which is a reproduction of part of a post I made some time ago but which still applies today.

Many unscrupulous land owners are dividing their land by selling 'undivided participations' in a large plot. As an example, a two hectare plot of land would be physically fenced off into, say, eight plots of 2,500 square metres. The owner would then sell an undivided participation in the land equivalent to 2,500 square metres and present it in such a way that it seems to be divided into eight plots and that each of the eight owners would have their own title deed to their part of the plot.

Indeed, they would have a title deed but this would clearly state that they own an UNDIVIDED PARTICIPATION in the whole two hectare plot. This means that each owner owns a little piece of every one else’s plot and that if just one of the owners gets into financial difficulties and is embargoed or made bankrupt this would affect the whole two hectares and its joint owners not just his own 2,500 square metres. Furthermore it would never be possible to raise a mortgage because, of course, they do not own the whole plot but only an undivided participation in it.

These facts are often skipped over by the purchasers lawyers who are either deliberately concealing the real facts or are not aware of the implications of purchasing land in this way.

The prospective purchasers are also persuaded that once they have acquired the plot they can construct a timber house without the need to seek planning permission. This is not so. A simple enquiry at any local Town Hall will reveal that exactly the same requirements and regulations exist for the construction of timber houses as those constructed of bricks and mortar. The agents for these wooden houses are often the same people who are trying to sell the land.

Alternatively the developer will obtain a building licence for an agricultural building and build it so that it looks like a house. There are hundreds of small houses dotted around the Andalucian countryside that, legally, are nothing more than sheds.

Whilst everything may seem fine in the short term the new owner will find that he is unable to register the new building on his land, will be unable to contract for water, electricity, telephone, etc. and, as a worst case scenario, may be forced to knock it down and he will find it virtually impossible to sell if and when he comes to do so. He is also persuaded that in a few years time he will be able to apply for a change of use of the property and make it legal but as things stand at the moment this is never going to happen.

The attraction of this proposition is obviously the relatively low cost of the apparently divided land and what is claimed to be a way of circumventing the planning regulations. Unfortunately many people have already fallen for this scam despite the warnings that they have been given and in a few months or years time they will be bemoaning the loss of their investment and blaming the Spanish authorities for allowing it to happen.

At least one local Town Hall was concerned enough about this situation to produce a leaflet urging prospective purchasers to ignore the advice of the barrack-room lawyers (usually ex-pats who haven’t got a clue what they are talking about) and to call at the Town Hall to get the real facts from the people who know.

Silver, if you have any more recent information which contradicts the above it would be interesting to hear it.

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Postby jpinks » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:44 pm

Beachcomber wrote:......At least one local Town Hall was concerned enough about this situation to produce a leaflet urging prospective purchasers to ignore the advice of the barrack-room lawyers (usually ex-pats who haven’t got a clue what they are talking about) and to call at the Town Hall to get the real facts from the people who know.....
That makes a refreshing change - provided the Town Hall know what they are and are not allowed to do themselves. Sometime they are almst as bad as the agents and lawyers at mis-information.
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Postby Beachcomber » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:40 pm

It's the same Town Hall that recently knocked down an illegally built dwelling and which has several more in its sites!

Although a small inland municipality it certainly seems determined to make its authority felt and information I have been given by its municipal architect has always been pretty well correct.

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Postby jpinks » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:44 pm

I am really glad to hear that at least one town hall is "doing the right thing". I just wish a few of the more politically involved ones would do the same.
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Postby sacromonte » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:20 pm

El Cid wrote:Under the present laws you can only reform a house if it has an intact roof. A ruin usually does not...
I have some rustic land, over 8 acres, with 200sqm ruin, well and borehole. We bought this land after the new laws came in about 4 years ago and were specifically told that the only way you can now build/reform in the campo, is to have over 25,000sqm of land and it must have an existing building on it. Architect, technical architect and surveyor all agreed that this purchase met the criteria at the time and if we wanted to build would have to apply to the ayutanmiento for a licence etc. We didn't intend to build then and were quite happy with owning this land with the prospect of building one day.

A few agents came to look at it and said we were mad to consider selling it because it was the only way you can legally reform/build if you had a building on it. A few months down the line, one agent said we hadn't got a hope in hell of getting a licence because it DIDN'T HAVE A ROOF ON IT. I thought this was ludicrous - again the town halls all getting in a muddle, not knowing what they were doing and scared of the Junta.

I got my lawyer in Marbella to get hold of the actual copy of the law which turns out that if you have land with a building on it these are your rights. Unless the law has changed again, I assume these rights are still current and no mention of having a roof or not.

I now understand that one agent has told me that there is an embargo on building in the campo from the ayuntamiento in our area - what they mean by that I don't know and waiting for my lawyer to check it out. I can understand them not wanting to building new buildings - a law which has been around for some time now - a law that seems to be ignored by most locals I'm afraid - but if the law from the Junta is correct, if you have land and ruin and it meets the criteria, it is your right to reform or knock down.

Anyone out there know any different. Please advise. I don't think anyone understands what is going on and if the wrong message is being sent out from town halls to estate agents, then it's going to affect everyone in my position.

Quote below from the actual law.



They basically manifest that in non-urban land it will be possible to maintain, rehabilitate and reform any previously existing constructions or installations


Article nº 157 describes what is to be understood as a construction legally ruined in procedures of municipal actuations. There is no mention about specific deterioration on roofs at all, but just a consideration or assumption saying that it is a ruin when repairs costs of a building having damages of stability, structural security, water tightness and consolidation surpasses the limit of having normal of conservation.



Whatever the case, the same norm indicates that the legal declaration of ruin shall always grant that the owner can choose between demolition and rehabilitation.



I have not seen any normative that refers to roofs (or their absence) contemplated as elements that define reforms, etc.

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Postby El Cid » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:32 pm

sacromonte wrote:Anyone out there know any different. Please advise. I don't think anyone understands what is going on and if the wrong message is being sent out from town halls to estate agents, then it's going to affect everyone in my position. .
From what you say it does seem that, not surprisingly, no one seems to have a definitive answer on anything to do with building in the campo - ruins or otherwise.

If you finally get to the point where you have consulted enough "experts" and feel comforable in going ahead, remember the Priors in Vera, who have just had an "apparently" legal house demolished by the Junta who seem to make up the rules as they go along and even apply them retrospectively.

I can say no more than to restate what I said in my last post.

"My advice would be to not even think about renovating or building on rustic land in Andalucia for the foreseeable future. If you do you are taking a huge risk and could easily lose all the money that you put into the project. "

Sid

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Postby JAR1972 » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:25 pm

Hello Granville

After recently trying (for 9 months) and failing to buy a plot plus ruin in the Montellano municipio this is what I found out.

I hope you are very rich and very patient. Due diligence is key, try and get independent opinions and as many as you can afford. Get your hands on a bona-fide copy of every document you can think of (registro). ie not via the vendor or vendor's agent if you can help it.

The Architecto Municipal should be the first person you visit. He (or she) will be able to give you an idea of what might or might not be permissable in their municipio. The rules vary eg 3.5ha is the minimum subdivision in Montellano vs 2.5ha in other areas. Also distance from other buildings and number of buildings within a radius of your build might be relevant.

Beware of rights of way (vias pecuarias), veredas, cañadas etc. Especially if your property borders one. The catastro doesn't always tie up with what is on the registro. Water courses, streams etc are also rights of way.

The Junta has a final say on building on suelo rural, and all new projects have to be sent to them for approval. Apparently if they don't reply within a given time then the build can go ahead. Apparently!

If the IBI receipts don't mention the ruin as a dwelling the build is effectively a "new" build. This means apart from the project you will also need a licencia de primer occupacion.

This is before you get into the business of electricity and water (illegal pozos etc).

All I can say is be very careful. It's a minefield.

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Postby peteroldracer » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:26 pm

You may also care to sit and think why you want to be so far from other people, and consider reforming something in a village, where you should be absorbed (as much as you want to) into the community, and there are no or few planning problems.
We moved here three years ago - to the day - and have just had a graphic confirmation that we were right to not be stuck out in the middle of nowhere: my partner's mother was taken ill before New Year (she had been out to visit in 2005 at the age of 87) meaning that she had to quickly fly back to the UK to visit. All our (Spanish) neighbours asked 'how is the abuela?', called round when my OH returned, followed the old lady's progress, and on hearing that she had died on the 9th, all came to extend their sympathy, offered any help we needed, and have again all called to see how my OH is following our return, with the usual gifts of lemons, oranges, avocados, fresh eggs. Their visits have been tactful and welcome - no cards or text messages such as we Brits tend to do, but far more human.
With more ratepayers in the villages, it could halt and even reverse the decline in the countryside, and at the same time broaden the life experience of ex-pats far more than being in isolation, or a ghetto.
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Postby hillybilly » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:04 pm

sacromonte wrote:Whatever the case, the same norm indicates that the legal declaration of ruin shall always grant that the owner can choose between demolition and rehabilitation.
As both demolition and reform require a licence to carry out, all you can really do is to initiate the process of applying for your licence to demolish or reform and see what the outcome is. Permission may be given, it may not, and you can always appeal.

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Postby julian » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:43 pm

if you talk to the municipal architect first, he will be able to tell you exactly what is possible, he is the one who informs the local town hall govt as to whether they can grant the licence.


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