Police powers

[El Cid]

There have been experiments with implanting microchips in humans for ID purposes. Experiments have been carried out in Supermarkets where all the items have similar chips or "RFIDs" in the packaging.

The idea is that you fill your trolley with goods and merely push it through an electronic checkout which instantly computes your bill and debits your credit card!

The technology certainly exists to chip everyone but the civil liberties crowd would go potty!

[Nige]

Good info Sid Seems to me that the UK government could arange for TESCO to help pay for the cost of the ID cards. Maybe they can put some TESCO advertising on the card and add the TESCO customer data to every card. The card could also have a chip with a RFID so that when the customer goes through the checkout with their UK ID card, TESCOS can automatically invoice the bill using the vast data base held on that individual by HM Governement and Tescos. Naturally the data base would have to include the bank details as well as PAYE code and criminal record, as well as the collar and shoe measurement in case these need to be checked at Tescos against the products in the basket.

[citymike]

I find it lamentable because the police will misuse these powers and alienate certain sections of society, not just radical muslims but most working class people. It will end in tears.

With nothing to hide you/they will have nothing to fear.

Not sure why you mention allienation of the working class.

Indeed it might be beneficial because if a persons data can be quickly verified it would seem harder to make accusations or hold people for questioning.

Mike

I mention the working class because I am working class and traditionally we have had problems and conflicts with the police. What constitutes something to hide? And do you believe that the police never fabricate evidence? They certainly did with the Birmingham 6 and with the Guildford 4 they hid evidence that would clear them. A very worrying trend is developing in the UK, I hope that the Spanish, with their recent memory of Franco will be more tolerant

[citymike]

I must move in different circles because virtually everyone I know in the UK would welcome the introduction of compulsory ID cards.

Beachcomber, in the real world we call such a group a clique.

[Beachcomber]

Probably any group of people with opinions that are contrary to those of another person or group would be regarded as a clique by them, real world or not!

If your views of the police were shared by the rest of 'your class' policing by consent would have been a thing of the past long ago.

[spanish hopes]

They certainly did with the Birmingham 6 and with the Guildford 4

Remind me Mike when any Judge said that any of this crowd was innocent.
The appeal decision was that their convictions were 'unsafe', i.e. not beyond reasonable doubt.
It was never said that they were innocent. I have worked in establishments where they were serving their sentences, they are very lucky to be free now.

[katy]

I would go with spanish hopes on this, what is there to be afraid of? maybe it should start with DNA at birth.

[Grouser]

If you don't know what there is to be afraid of perhaps you should try reading George Orwell's 1984. It's not the card that is the problem, it's the potential for a vast data base of information attached to it and the possibilities for the abuse of that which is disturbing.

[Bongtrees]

If you don't know what there is to be afraid of perhaps you should try reading George Orwell's 1984. It's not the card that is the problem, it's the potential for a vast data base of information attached to it and the possibilities for the abuse of that which is disturbing.

Apart from fingerprints or DNA name one thing about our personal life that is not available to someone somewhere?

1984 arrived with the Labour Party in 97

Mike

[citymike]

They certainly did with the Birmingham 6 and with the Guildford 4

Remind me Mike when any Judge said that any of this crowd was innocent.
The appeal decision was that their convictions were 'unsafe', i.e. not beyond reasonable doubt.
It was never said that they were innocent. I have worked in establishments where they were serving their sentences, they are very lucky to be free now.

LOL!!

[Blubba]

I must move in different circles because virtually everyone I know in the UK would welcome the introduction of compulsory ID cards

.


same here - although I do object to being on a DNA database.

Sherlock, just curious, do you have specific reasons for objecting to a dna database registration, ie. religious grounds, or is it a general objection on the grounds of "civil liberties"

[Faire d'Income]

I must move in different circles because virtually everyone I know in the UK would welcome the introduction of compulsory ID cards.

I think you do. No-one I know or work with is remotely interested in carrying ID cards, particularly the unworkable system being touted by HMG at present.

[El Cid]

I think you do. No-one I know or work with is remotely interested in carrying ID cards, particularly the unworkable system being touted by HMG at present.

For unworkable read costly.

Before it became apparent that there was going to be an unacceptable cost involved, various opinion polls in the UK suggested that well over 70% of the populace were in favour.

If the cost was a token amount the majority would be in favour still.

Sid

[Grouser]

Sid, the reason the public were behind the cards was because they had been panicked by propaganda. There was never considered to be any need for them all through the ghastly period when the IRA were indiscriminantly bombing towns and cities.
Also not just expensive but quite possbly unworkable. A lot of expert opinion seems to be that the technology is not fully developed, tried and tested and given the government's track record on previous large IT projects (massive overspends, software not delivering properly) the prognosis is not good

Bongtrees, have you actually read 1984? On your second point I agree that the information is already held by various organisations, but the point about the card is that it would join it all up. Maybe you trust the government and civil servants to keep that information confidential and not abuse it, maybe you trust the IT consultants to design a hack proof system that criminal organisations cannot penitrate, steal identities and generally exploit the information pool to their own ends. I am of a more cynical disposition

[Bongtrees]

Bongtrees, have you actually read 1984? On your second point I agree that the information is already held by various organisations, but the point about the card is that it would join it all up. Maybe you trust the government and civil servants to keep that information confidential and not abuse it, maybe you trust the IT consultants to design a hack proof system that criminal organisations cannot penitrate, steal identities and generally exploit the information pool to their own ends. I am of a more cynical disposition

Yes Grouse I have read and re-read 1984 and whilst I trust nobody I firmly believe that now an ID card is needed in the UK.

We the general public are lied to and exploited by government and big corporations every day already. Lets have the ID card and complete the circle.

Mike

[Faire d'Income]

For unworkable read costly.

Before it became apparent that there was going to be an unacceptable cost involved, various opinion polls in the UK suggested that well over 70% of the populace were in favour.

If the cost was a token amount the majority would be in favour still.

Sid

Opinion polls in the Sun and the Mail may have indicated those levels of support but not from the people I know because quite simply, the cost is irrelevant given that ID cards won't and don't stop terrorism or other criminal activities - just look at the Madrid bombings.

HMG wants to introduce ID cards on a voluntary basis and if stopped by the Police, people will be issued with a producer similar to that given when you are stopped in your vehicle which requires you to take your ID card to the local Police station.

I can just see it now...

'now then, now then Mr.Shoebomber, I'm issuing you with this form which requires you to produce your ID card at your local nick. Can I trust you to do this?'

'Of course officer, I'll do it right away'....

Yeah, right. Nobody outside the Nazi Blue Rinse Brigade really believes that criminals are that gullible which brings me back to my original point - they don't have popular support in the UK.

[spanish hopes]

Nobody outside the Nazi Blue Rinse Brigade

Nice phrase to try to prove your point. Being one of the above I will repeat,... I have nothing illegal to hide so have no objections to either carrying an ID card or having my DNA on a national or international for that matter database. I object to the proposed cost of the ID card. I do not subscribe to the politically correct view that everyone must have their civil liberties upheld. If you offend against society or humanity you do not deserve to have civil liberties.
Only offenders either past or present have anything to fear from a DNA database or the carrying of ID cards.

[Faire d'Income]

Your naivety is stunning. I suggest that you do some more research into the subject.

[spanish hopes]

Naive posibly, honest definately, what do you have to hide. The human rights guerillas are much more of a danger to the safety of the human race than for an honest man to carry ID.

[Grouser]

Spanish Hopes I notice you don't address my points about the vulnerabilities of the computer systems, that will run the cards, to abuse and hacking.
Your blue rinse must look rather startling. Do you have a picture?