Via pecuaria and Cañadas

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Trooperman
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Via pecuaria and Cañadas

Postby Trooperman » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:30 pm

Hi
Is anyone else the subject of the Junta´s land appropriation in the guise of recovering old drove roads? It seems to rear its head from time to time in various parts of the province and now we are in the firing line (Cortes de la Frontera). What´s happening elsewhere - is anyone else being threatened - and has anyone been successful in the past in getting the Junta to listen to the complaints and the misery this is causing incomers and Spaniards alike? :cry: :?:

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cañada real

Postby julian » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:59 pm

It really depends how far down the line the Junta have gone with the via that affects you, some of the plans are now approved, and definite , which means that you cannot challenge them, but if it is still in the process of deciding the exact route you can challenge it, for example if it cuts right through the centre of a finca it is possible to re-route it as long as it does not affect other owners. I have a cañada real that cuts a corner off my finca in gaucin, but then again I always knew it was there, so I´m not sure if it´s fair to be upset that the Junta wants to reclaim it.
you can get more info from Medio Ambiente

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Trooperman
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Postby Trooperman » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:04 am

Thanks for that Julian. It´s probably the same Cañada as you´re on if your finca is in Gaucin and mine is in Cortes - just a bit further on! However, if only it was "just a corner" that was affected. Here we have attempts to reclaim a 75metre wide (yes! 75 metres) drove road which, because it´s near a village, has houses (some of them 100years old) within the boundaries, new houses in the way, land farmed by the villagers for cash crops threatened, and, to a lesser extent, a lump of my own finca being (mis)appropriated, and for what? So sheep and goats can once more be driven from Gibraltar to Ronda? There´s no compensation on offer - not that the villagers want that necessarily - and there´s now a blight on all the property and land involved as they will be unable to sell it on or, as I understand matters, pass it on to their surviving relatives as upon the current owners demise it will pass into the "public domain". Of course, the vecinos shrug their shoulders and regard the regional government as totally unrepresentative of them nowadays as was the case in times past! They are being put upon once again by a heavy handed, insensitive government and even if it is legal, I just wish there was some means of shaming the junta into owning up to their roughshod tactics. HEEEEELP :evil:

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Postby campo babe » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:09 pm

We live on a "cattle track" near Rincon. We bought the land in 2001 and our house was built in 2002/03. We new nothing about the cattle track and had been in residence for several months before someone told us about it. There then followed people from the Medio Ambiente placing stakes in our land 10 metres from the track. The claimed that all the land in front of our house belonged to the cattle track. They stopped our neighbours from putting up concrete gate posts, and we are not allowed to build a wall in front of our house.

The person from the Medio Ambiente told us he had warned our builder not to put our house so near to the track. Of course none of this was passed on to us.

According to our escritura we own the land up to the edge of the track, and the track is owned by the local ayuntamiento.

There doesn't seem to be any way to sue anyone or get compensation for this situation.

I have been thinking about writing to the EU as they are supposed to have given money towards the opening of these tracks.

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Postby campo babe » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:27 pm

There was an article in the Sur in English and the link is

http://www.surinenglish.com/noticias.ph ... 4&Week=179

I did email the person who wrote the article and he sent me some quite useful information. Send me a PM with an email address and I will forward it on to you.

However, because he had made such a public fuss about the situation by writing in the Sur, a few months later the Medio Ambiente moved in and took over his land before they had finished negotiating with him.

I haven't heard anything more from him!

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Postby Rosalie » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:37 pm

Hi campo babe

I have sent you a pm you may recieve it twice any info would be welcome

son looking at buying in Cortes de la Frontera

Rosalie

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silver
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Postby silver » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:47 pm

Dont know if you have seen this Trooperman
http://www.mediterranea.org/cae/ley3_95vpecuarias.htm

just posted it in case it is of use to you.
No muerdes la mano que te da de comer.

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Postby katy » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:56 pm

I am all in favour of preserving (opening) these ancient rights of way (as they do in the UK). If these existed on the purchasers land surely the lawyer should have pointed it out :? I do sympathise with people caught up in this, it seems they are particulary zealous about enforcing them when foreigners have bought the land. Sure locals must have known about this, the lane we used to live on was a camino real (as the nieghbours called it and they all knew about it).

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Postby Trooperman » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:15 pm

Thanks to all who´ve taken the trouble to respond to my enquiry about the Cañadas and Vias Pecuarias - I did suspect the proceedure was widespread and all your comments confirm this, and indeed, also confirm there is an element of high-handedness about the Junta´s actions. The near impossibility of having rational discussions with a latin bureaucracy suggests that Brussels ought to be involved, especially as there is a suggestion that it is EU money that allows and even initiates these proceedures. The human rights side of things seems a good bet, particularly for my (almost exclusively) Spanish neighbours. To Katy, who believes that the recovery of the Spanish equivalent of "green lanes" is to be applauded, I can say that not many would disagree with that point of view. However, it is the blind application of what the Junta sees as its "rights" that is so disturbing - as someone else noted - the width of these routes and indeed their historical accuracy is being arbitrarily determined by the Junta with no geographical commonsense being used whatsoever.
As for lawyers knowing about these threats - just how are they supposed to know? Even today I can go onto the Ministry/Hacienda catastral web site and, on entering my poligono and parcela number, instantly see a map/plan of the land I own; it´s area, it´s agricultural designation, the part allocated for an above ground bulding (yes it even distinguishes between above and below ground structures!) and all the latitude and longitude co-ordinates across the entire country should I wish to know them. No mention of any public ownership of any land nearby. It´s true the locals sort of knew about it because it´s been raising its (ugly) head for years apparently but in any case, the philosophy of "uberimae fidei" or utmost good faith seems not to exist in Spanish law or culture - so once again the gullible Brits have to find out the hard way.
Nil desperandum.

ps if anyone is buying around this area they can check with me by pm and I´ll alert them to what I know of the route of this 75 metre wide gash in the landscape.

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Postby hillybilly » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:26 pm

Must be one hell of a herd of goats if they need a 75m wide drove :shock:

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Trooperman
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Postby Trooperman » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:28 pm

My point exactly (or one of them!)

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Postby Beachcomber » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:28 pm

There are many interesting points in the law that Silver gave the link to. This is one of them:

Artículo 4. Tipos de vías pecuarias.

1. Las vías pecuarias se denominan, con carácter general: cañadas, cordeles y veredas.

a. Las cañadas son aquellas vías cuya anchura no exceda de los 75 metros.

b. Son cordeles, cuando su anchura no sobrepase los 37,5 metros.

c. Veredas son las vías que tienen una anchura no superior a los 20 metros.

The widths given are maximum widths for each class of vía pecuaria NOT the width that they must be.

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via pecuaria and canadas

Postby gavilan » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:41 pm

not goats, sheep and millions of them ... La Mesta autocratic organisation for hundreds of years ... lots of these old tracks around where we llive ... sierra tejeda, almijara ... though why Junta de Andalucia should want to reclaim them when they caused misery to thousands of small famers for centuries (they had to allow sheep, voracious eaters, to graze wherever and whatever they liked) ... is a bit strange?

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Postby julian » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:02 pm

this "green way" is part of a route that will go from the algarve in portugal, through spain , france, italy ending up in sicily, it has a grant from the EEC . All the spanish regional governments affected are going through the same process as the Junta de Andalucia.

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Postby Bandy » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:25 pm

Hello trooperman
We have owned a property in Cortes in El Chopo for more than 5 years and are up to speed on the situation. Basically renfe are bridging over their railway line through the el chopo area and taking the canada out of any other equation.
I will not be back there until October but as far as I know all is well. Please send a pm and I can put you in touch with a few friends and neighbours who will be able to ally your concerns :lol:
is the sun over the yardarm yet ?

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Trooperman
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Postby Trooperman » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:32 pm

So, Julian, (and I do remember your own predicament) does that make it right?
These forum subjects have a habit of self procreation at a speed that would impress rabbits. It seems. from many, many contacts and web site referrals that have now come my way, that these land appropriations are nation-wide, affecting incomers and Spaniards alike, and are driven by a bureaucratic, totalitarian, administration that is intent upon exerting its domination on a population that cannot defend itself. If ever there was a case for the intervention of a human rights court, this is it. Stay tuned.

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Postby Trooperman » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:50 pm

Yes, Bandy. I´m aware that RENFE (the state Railway Company) have altered the situation in El Choppo. Amazing isn´t it, that another state organisation can overcome the problem whilst the poor individual (and I stress that most of the disadvantaged are Spanish) is the one with no say, no power, no resource to legal help, and no rights other than one single vote at the next election. For those unaware of the position, the old drove road around El Choppo is now crossed (and has been since the turn of the century - 19th to 20th that is!) by the Algeciras to Bobadilla rail track with resulting safety problems for RENFE who are responsible for safety wherever a track/road crosses their line. That track which crosses their line is, surprise, surprise, the old Cañada Real - goats, sheep cattle, ganaderos et al. So, to avoid the expense of automatic crossings, RENFE exercised their rights and acquired other land (compensation of a minimum order was paid) to divert the Cañada. So much for recovering the "old" drove roads. The new "Cañada" in El Choppo is no longer the old Cañada, but a new track stolen from other landowners.

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Postby campo babe » Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:57 am

Trooperman,I am interested in the bit where you say

" there´s now a blight on all the property and land involved as they will be unable to sell it on or, as I understand matters, pass it on to their surviving relatives as upon the current owners demise it will pass into the public domain".

Do you mean the part of the land that is deemed to be part of the "cattle track"? I certainly hadn't thought about what happens when we try to sell it on. I had looked at it as if it was a right of way not the actual taking of the land.

Is there no compensation for people who have bought this land in good faith and have an escritura showing it in their name?

Should we ask for compensation from the person who sold us this land?

Beachcomber, the Junta are asking for the whole 20 metres of vereda, taking land each side, even though the track at about 9 metres is sufficient for the current traffic - the odd 4 x 4, van, horses, walkers and of course racing motor bikes! I have yet to see any cattle, and the goats usually use an entirely different route across country!

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Postby Beachcomber » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:00 pm

If your land borders a vía pecuaria there should be an annotation in the property registry to this effect and that part of your land may be liable to expropriation by the authorities in order to establish its legal boundaries.

I believe that this is all happening now because many of the original edicts were passed in 1996 and any concessions that were allowed at that time concerning the boundaries of vías pecuarias either had to be renewed or rescinded within ten years.

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Trooperman
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Postby Trooperman » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:34 pm

Please understand that we don´t speak Spanish sufficiently well either
to understand the law or to converse knowledgeably with our "vecinos" with verbs and nouns that are not part of everyday speech. I have used reasonably fluent friends to do the talking and translating and, as I have said above, these exchanges in this forum have been most illuminating. The link you gave me to the SUR newspaper, and the subsequent email correspondance you had with the author has provided the most info - thanks for that. I suggest you re-read those letters from Antony in the Genal valley (near us) including his rather despairing final one after the Junta had, more or less forcibly, entered his finca, bulldozed an ancient wall, marked out a car park and pulled down his fences. It is a right of way and the Junta own the land. If your buildings are in the way/on the Junta´s land you will have to come to some accommodation with them -like rent them back. The "blight" comes about because anyone enquiring locally about your land/buildings if you decide to sell will be told about the Via Pecuaria and that what you thought was (still) your land is not, however yours to sell.
The aforementioned Antony, in his in-depth analysis of the whole proceedure, does say that eventually - after all the processes have been gone through - the land will be registered as being owned by the Junta. Until that happens, anyone doing a land registry search will find no mention whatsoever of a claim.
I believe you may have a claim upon the seller if he/she knew that what they were selling was not theirs to sell. Good luck with the Spanish courts on that one.
There is NO compensation because the Junta´s argument is that it was never rightfully yours in the first place -despite the catastral survey and escritura - the land is being appropriated. Look up the OED on that one -it´s an English word I know but it means "taking without permission".
I can send by private email the info sheet to anyone who asks - it´s too big to place here.
This is an iniquitous law, worthy of a despotic regime, not a Europe of the 21st Century.


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