Coronavirus

[markwilding]

I give up. We are having different debates. What I wrote stands. It stands with statistics. Maybe what I wrote is not liked very much and you can 'not like it' but nevertheless it is true as of today.

Both the UK and Spain for that matter, with lockdown have had more Covid-19 deaths than Sweden, without lockdown. The UK, free and independent post-Brexit, and Spain part of the EU, both have shattered economies. Sweden still has an economy in better shape. It seems pretty clear, doesn't it? By all means compare Sweden with a green cheese if you like but it does not make what I wrote incorrect, does it?

"Obviously, Paul compared it's death rate with other Scandinavian countries, because of their similarity'

As in all these countries have people?

Yes we know all that but if you just use the UK and Spain as an example, then obviously you would be absolutely correct but that's not the way it works. When it's looked from a wider picture and other other factors are introduced then your argument doesn't hold up so well.
If you then add the point that the countries that went into lock down sooner, tended to do better.

The example of Sweden was always going to be interesting and as many I had an open mind

What I would say On the whole, none of it is absolutely conclusive but if all the evidence is taken into account, including Sweden's own expert showing regret then that's the reason I haven't come to the same conclusion as you.

[katy]

Yes Mark I think it is too soon to come to a conclusion in any country. Just remember not all Swedish "experts" agree.

[olive]

Well I certainly remember the days when the news reported ...the news. You believed it. Even something as impossible as a men sent in a large bean can to the moon and back. Clearly impossible.

Now we have predictions of the news with footage to sensationalise every aspect. For example a fire burning in a street in Paris means the whole of France is on fire because they don't agree with Macron's latest policy. Then they wheel out so called experts that selectively put a spin ( Left in the case of the BBC) on the subject explaining how wrong it is , how badly A performed and so on.

This Virus has pushed News forecasting to a new level where most normal people are scared to death. How many times have you heard someone say " I don't watch the news anymore"?

[Lavanda]

Absolutely agree, Olive.

[Devils Advocate]

I truly think and the stats now clearly show it that far more should have been done to protect the elderly and very vulnerable from catching Covid from the off, both in care homes and Hospitals.

They lock down 5-70 year olds where the cases of deaths arising from it are pretty low, yet let it rip through the most vulnerable people already in care and who can't look after themselves. Special testing should have been a priority for the carers and medical staff tending these victims............we could all ensure we were safe, they couldn't. Covid should not have got near them. The death rates would have been minimal with this approach and no need whatsoever for the lockdown and misery it's stacked on so many. The "cure" will be worse than Covid itself, I'm convinced of that 100%.

[olive]

Agreed. It is somewhat disconcerting to see schoolboy howlers being made regularly across the world. With each country employing so called experts to "lead the science".

Things like adopting best practice from other countries ahead of the curve. e.g. one way systems in supermarkets, disinfecting the trolleys between use, providing disposable gloves, only taking card payments. Insisting on isolation on entering the country (China expected the traveller to pay for that at an offered hotel) , care homes, limiting travel, not ordering PPE or testing kit or hand sanitizer etc etc.

It does make you wonder how our generation would cope in a real emergency if Russia invaded more of Europe or if Iran used the nuclear weapons it hasn't got against Israeli targets or China expanded into the South China Sea and Hong Kong.

[gerrynag]

Paulinmalaga: I only posted on Sweden because an article in the press said that they were no worse off than the UK for not isolating BUT they still have their economy. So I don't know why they compared Sweden with the UK when you write:

"Comparing Sweden to the U.K is impossible due to many factors, population density being chief amongst them."

It's here, correct as of today 4th June 2020:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/tota ... er-million

UK deaths per million: 582.22
Sweden 449.74

The discussion is that without lockdown a country is NOT worse off AND still has their economy. That's all it's saying. No big argument.

The UK is high for a number of reasons, population density being one, but other reasons include various mistakes made by the UK government.
Comparing Sweden with the UK is silly, asalready stated, a much better comparsion is with its neighbouring countries who did have lockdown, where Sweden has performed much worst in terms of numbers.
So Sweden without lockdown is worst off compared with similar countries for number of cases and deaths.
As far as the economy is concerned, it's a bit early to say how any economy is performing.

[Lavanda]

The headline says that:

Britain announces 176 more coronavirus deaths as daily data shows Covid-19 is still killing more people in the UK than in the rest of the EU combined

Which means that TODAY there are more deaths in the UK than the rest of Europe. Not that the TOTALS since the crisis began are more.

Either way it's lazy, sensationalism and rubbish journalism.

[K&LTupper]

The headline says that:

Britain announces 176 more coronavirus deaths as daily data shows Covid-19 is still killing more people in the UK than in the rest of the EU combined

Which means that TODAY there are more deaths in the UK than the rest of Europe. Not that the TOTALS since the crisis began are more.

Either way it's lazy, sensationalism and rubbish journalism.

Where does it say that?

[Devils Advocate]

Good summary of the misleading figures in the FT, sadly behind a paywall.

[elusive]

The headline says that:

Britain announces 176 more coronavirus deaths as daily data shows Covid-19 is still killing more people in the UK than in the rest of the EU combined

Which means that TODAY there are more deaths in the UK than the rest of Europe. Not that the TOTALS since the crisis began are more.

Either way it's lazy, sensationalism and rubbish journalism.

Personally i read it as a statement about daily death figures compairing the uk with the rest of europe. To me it doesnt imply totals as they are talking about daily figures in the headline But thats just me.

I hate the media with a passion but that headline didnt jump out to me. I guess its down to how you read it.

[Beachcomber]

If one searches for that headline and then takes the trouble to actually read all of the results it is obvious that, as Lavanda and Elusive say, it means that the daily death rate in the UK is higher than the daily death rate in the rest of Europe. I am not sure what part of that is so difficult to understand.

[Lavanda]

Thank you Beachcomber.

[markwilding]

Spain on the other hand had one of the toughest of all lockdowns and the daily deaths for the 3rd June was in the others group comprising of 18 countries while Sweden with less than a quarter of the population had 71. No matter which way it is being looked at, Sweden is not doing well and is not a shining example of how to deal with the pandemic.

[Lavanda]

Factor in their economy.

[markwilding]

Factor in their economy.

Yes, it didn't suffer in the first quarter but this is not the case any more

The Riksbank, the country’s central bank, has an even gloomier outlook, estimating that GDP will contract by 7-10 per cent, with unemployment peaking at between 9 and 10.4 per cent

https://www.thelocal.se/20200518/sweden ... perts-warn

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-lockdown

https://www.wsj.com/articles/sweden-has ... 1588870062

[K&LTupper]

The IMF forecast a severe recession for 2020 ....I think they are a fairly trustworthy source

"Together, these factors, and the relatively large fall in employment in recent weeks suggest the containment strategy may affect quarterly GDP growth rather than the outcome for the year as a whole. Most forecasters agree that Sweden will face a severe recession this year, but it is too early to say whether this strategy will prolong the recession or aid the recovery.

Any final verdict will also depend on whether, as a by-product of its approach, Sweden is closer to achieving herd immunity, thereby increasing its resilience in the event of another wave of infection. Medical knowledge about Covid-19 is still accumulating, and recent tests indicate that immunity gains have been lower than initially projected."

[katy]

Germany’s economy is forecast to contract by 10% so Sweden not as serious.

[K&LTupper]

That will cheer up the Swedish Government

[Lavanda]

Not sure about the ‘Dark Materials’ bit but obviously I like all the bits about Sweden. Ha! Ha!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ed-second/