Coronavirus

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elusive
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby elusive » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:03 am

Whether it is right or wrong, expecting people to stay in their homes for months on end is a big ask. Perhaps they are all 100% convinced by the stay home, save lives.
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Fear and guilt. Protect the N.H.S etc. Etc mantra. Not that whats killing nhs staff is a shambolic lack of PPE. No its the general publics fault if they dare to sit down in the middle of an empty park for two mins. The goverment is good at shifting the blame and responsibility. Fear will make ppl do alot of things. If you scare ppl enough with all the horror stories instead of actually looking at the mortality figures etc

The police is spain are been investigated by the ombudsman for the amount of fines been handed out and how lawful they are or not! They are only supposed to fine after repeated warnings and the amounts vary depending on argumentative etc the accused is

Lavanda
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby Lavanda » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:19 am

Only in my opinion but there is much in what you say, Elusive. However, I think people know that if groups start to rebel and not join in the group effort, then anarchy will soon follow. Look at developments in America. The UK may have an inept government with an absent PM, convalescing at Chequers, and Spain may also have a dithering coalition government but, really, what does anyone expect. No one could have imagined this would happen. It does expose governments and politicians are useless but maybe now is not the time to question things. The only person I have heard lately who seems to grasp what is going on is Keir Starmer. He has said, quite clearly, now is the time to support the government's efforts and later will come the questions and accountability. What else can we do?

However, Spain's children are soon allowed out to play a social distancing game like football or tennis. That's a step in the right direction.

markwilding
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby markwilding » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:49 am

I don't think governments are the only ones to blame, People in both Spain and the UK insisted on voting for governments who wanted to control debt though austerity. Both health service' have been hit by savage cuts meaning that have been ill prepared for this crisis.

How many times do we hear people saying that we need a long term strategy then go on to dismiss opinions that don't fit in with their own, There are posters on here who use the constant rhetoric that the governments don't listen without explaining how it is possible to listen to everybody all of the time. Both sides of the populists political use this to manipulate people..

I have always been of the opinion, consensus politics is the answer because it means you can make long term plans but there is no chance it will ever happen because of the all or nothing short- termism, short-sighted style of political system we have developed into.

elusive
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby elusive » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:14 pm

Lavanda wrote:Only in my opinion but there is much in what you say, Elusive. However, I think people know that if groups start to rebel and not join in the group effort, then anarchy will soon follow. Look at developments in America. The UK may have an inept government with an absent PM, convalescing at Chequers, and Spain may also have a dithering coalition government but, really, what does anyone expect. No one could have imagined this would happen. It does expose governments and politicians are useless but maybe now is not the time to question things. The only person I have heard lately who seems to grasp what is going on is Keir Starmer. He has said, quite clearly, now is the time to support the government's efforts and later will come the questions and accountability. What else can we do?

However, Spain's children are soon allowed out to play a social distancing game like football or tennis. That's a step in the right direction.
Totally understand your point. I agree there isnt much anyone can do. Horse and stable door come to mind. But fear and guilt is not the way to treat a population. Totally agree with keir and as sanchez said yeah we have fecked up (well kinda) but nows not the time and we need to get through it and then afterwards the blame game can start.moreno is asking that restrictions are lifted first in andalucia due to the low infection rate according to the latest el pais article and death figures drop into the 400's .although theres normally under reporting on a weekend

The demos in america are political imo.white privilage Gun toting confederate flag waving right wing trump supporters. Paranoid that the state has it in for them and is taking their rights away.

Good to see that the uk goverment was sending PPE to china in january and boris missed several cobra meetings in feb according to a whistleblower article in the papers today.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby katy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:06 pm

elusive wrote:Whether it is right or wrong, expecting people to stay in their homes for months on end is a big ask. Perhaps they are all 100% convinced by the stay home, save lives.
----------------------
Fear and guilt. Protect the N.H.S etc. Etc mantra. Not that whats killing nhs staff is a shambolic lack of PPE. No its the general publics fault if they dare to sit down in the middle of an empty park for two mins. The goverment is good at shifting the blame and responsibility. Fear will make ppl do alot of things. If you scare ppl enough with all the horror stories instead of actually looking at the mortality figures etc

The police is spain are been investigated by the ombudsman for the amount of fines been handed out and how lawful they are or not! They are only supposed to fine after repeated warnings and the amounts vary depending on argumentative etc the accused is
A couple of days ago 24 nurses had died of Coronavirus in UK. Given that there are around 350 thousand to 600,000 thousand nurses in UK (depending which news you read) that is very small number. Smaller than in a lot of countries. Not all were front line staff either. No evidence where they picked up the virus, cold also be shopping or as in one video on Facebook 4 nurses sorting amongst the free food left outside the hospital shoulder to shoulder. What about all the supermarket workers, they are at risk too.

There will be shortages of PPE in hotspot hospitals but seems to be much exaggerated unless you stick to the Guardian and Daily Mail. There are procurers in the NHS whose role it is/was to order PPE paid over £100,000 pa. Likewise shortage in Nursing/care homes most of which are privately (and badly) run. They should share some or most of the blame too. Many who have gone viral re. lack of PPE have been exposed as labour and or Union activists. Take the emotive one in the DM today about a nurse and her 8 year old Daughter. Some of her colleagues (named) who work at the same hospital says there is no shortage there and is not even busy. She has political history too. Then there was the BBC fake news that the head of a trust had called them for the contact number for Burberry although they did retract when exposed. Lots of hype and disinformation.

The Police in Spain are not the only ones being investigated. 37 care homes are being investigated too for dereliction of duty.

I think the expert who said on TV today that despite all the differing policies on lock downs, treatments etc. he thinks at the end all countries will finish with around the same stats per head of population. He predicted 0.5% of the world.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby olive » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:06 pm

markwilding wrote:I don't think governments are the only ones to blame, People in both Spain and the UK insisted on voting for governments who wanted to control debt though austerity. Both health service' have been hit by savage cuts meaning that have been ill prepared for this crisis.

How many times do we hear people saying that we need a long term strategy then go on to dismiss opinions that don't fit in with their own, There are posters on here who use the constant rhetoric that the governments don't listen without explaining how it is possible to listen to everybody all of the time. Both sides of the populists political use this to manipulate people..

I have always been of the opinion, consensus politics is the answer because it means you can make long term plans but there is no chance it will ever happen because of the all or nothing short- termism, short-sighted style of political system we have developed into.
I read quite an interesting article on spend as a percentage of GDP for European countries. The average was around 9% . The article pointed out that Germany was around 1.5% higher and that was why they have weathered the Corona virus storm better than most. I had to smile as that is the amount extra they should have been spending to meet their commitments to NATO. Hey ho. You could argue that they benefited from security provided by their neighbours spending at the expense of their own citizens health. They have also benefitted from having a fleet response from their pharmaceuticals.

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver ... FBE374109E

Did people vote for governments that wanted austerity? I thought it was an EU mandate that countries had to stick to certain criteria. The EU policy was countries couldn’t run a defecit larger than 3% GDP.It is only now that countries like Italy have gone commando. Could Spain have spent their way out of austerity if they had wanted to? I suspect not. Ironic now that countries across Europe have a bottomless pit of money to spend off a magic money tree.

https://www.businessinsider.com/austeri ... ?r=US&IR=T

I agree with you on the all or nothing short termism political system. In the UK there isn’t anything between the spend and bloat the public sector / cut and privatise everything, profit for the few.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby K&LTupper » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:36 pm

katy wrote:
A couple of days ago 24 nurses had died of Coronavirus in UK. Given that there are around 350 thousand to 600,000 thousand nurses in UK (depending which news you read) that is very small number. Smaller than in a lot of countries. Not all were front line staff either. No evidence where they picked up the virus, cold also be shopping or as in one video on Facebook 4 nurses sorting amongst the free food left outside the hospital shoulder to shoulder. What about all the supermarket workers, they are at risk too.

There will be shortages of PPE in hotspot hospitals but seems to be much exaggerated unless you stick to the Guardian and Daily Mail. There are procurers in the NHS whose role it is/was to order PPE paid over £100,000 pa. Likewise shortage in Nursing/care homes most of which are privately (and badly) run. They should share some or most of the blame too. Many who have gone viral re. lack of PPE have been exposed as labour and or Union activists. Take the emotive one in the DM today about a nurse and her 8 year old Daughter. Some of her colleagues (named) who work at the same hospital says there is no shortage there and is not even busy. She has political history too. Then there was the BBC fake news that the head of a trust had called them for the contact number for Burberry although they did retract when exposed. Lots of hype and disinformation.

The Police in Spain are not the only ones being investigated. 37 care homes are being investigated too for dereliction of duty.

I think the expert who said on TV today that despite all the differing policies on lock downs, treatments etc. he thinks at the end all countries will finish with around the same stats per head of population. He predicted 0.5% of the world.
[/quote]

Much exaggerated....really?


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/ ... 16077.html

https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/statem ... -shortages

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby Pamela1 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:21 pm

I can't speak for Spain or any other country but where i am the nearest hospital hasn't exactly had a CV crisis YET acording to a nurse who works in it who i know well...Her words were it's dead! She also said no matter what people are presenting with doctors have been very quick to put it down to the virus and it's as if people are being ignored. She also said cancer treatments and other treatments are on hold in the hospital, hardly seems fair to those hoping to survive cancer, the mental stress must be horendous.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby katy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:13 pm

Yes Pamela. Read an article about worries people may be put off attending GPs because of the crisis. Time they examined their priorities, perhaps some figures on heart and cancer deaths too, how do they compare? A friend has some sort of injection periodically for cancer, his last one was cancelled and he complained and was rescheduled for the week after.

OH had a review last week after his operation and it was referred to a private hospital on the coast instead of Brighton Hospital. He is not allowed to drive right now but I was allowed to sit in garden and was even brought tea and cakes..sea view too.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby markwilding » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:21 pm

Surely the point is we shouldn't be having to talk about priorities.

katy
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby katy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:40 pm

Mark you may think differently if you had cancer or needed a heart operation.

elusive
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby elusive » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:22 pm

Pamela1 wrote:I can't speak for Spain or any other country but where i am the nearest hospital hasn't exactly had a CV crisis YET acording to a nurse who works in it who i know well...Her words were it's dead! She also said no matter what people are presenting with doctors have been very quick to put it down to the virus and it's as if people are being ignored. She also said cancer treatments and other treatments are on hold in the hospital, hardly seems fair to those hoping to survive cancer, the mental stress must be horendous.
These overflow/private hospitals should be looking after all the covid patients.like what they did with T.B etc.the main hospitals disinfected and then used as normal. Delaying cancer treatments etc is disgraceful how many ppl are gonna die cause treatments/diagnosis are delayed

markwilding
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby markwilding » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:08 am

olive wrote: I read quite an interesting article on spend as a percentage of GDP for European countries. The average was around 9% . The article pointed out that Germany was around 1.5% higher and that was why they have weathered the Corona virus storm better than most. I had to smile as that is the amount extra they should have been spending to meet their commitments to NATO. Hey ho. You could argue that they benefited from security provided by their neighbours spending at the expense of their own citizens health. They have also benefitted from having a fleet response from their pharmaceuticals.
Or you could argue that they choose to pay higher taxes to have a better health system. These are political choices.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... stralia-us
olive wrote:Did people vote for governments that wanted austerity? I thought it was an EU mandate that countries had to stick to certain criteria.
The EU policy was countries couldn’t run a defecit larger than 3% GDP.It is only now that countries like Italy have gone commando. Could Spain have spent their way out of austerity if they had wanted to? I suspect not. Ironic now that countries across Europe have a bottomless pit of money to spend off a magic money tree.

In both the UK and Spain they re-elected right of centre governments at least 4 years into austerity .

Spain couldn't have spent their way out of the recession but Austerity was severe in Spain and again was a poilical choice. The UK were under no such budget restrictions and in my opinion the lack of investment in health and social care as well as infrustucture has made lasting damage to the country.
As it can be seen by both countries, it is a false economy. OK, we don't pass the debt to our children(The right's mantra a few years ago) but we pass on an ill equipped infrstucture than struggles the deal with major crisis such as the current problem. As a result we pass on the responsibilty of investment to them.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby Beachcomber » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:50 am

Back to the subject of this thread, please, or it will be closed.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby Devils Advocate » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:10 am

Pamela1 wrote:I can't speak for Spain or any other country but where i am the nearest hospital hasn't exactly had a CV crisis YET acording to a nurse who works in it who i know well...Her words were it's dead! She also said no matter what people are presenting with doctors have been very quick to put it down to the virus and it's as if people are being ignored. She also said cancer treatments and other treatments are on hold in the hospital, hardly seems fair to those hoping to survive cancer, the mental stress must be horendous.
Very good post and it mirrors what a Doctor client of my OH's told her the other day about the situation in the hospital he works at in our area. He said he'd never seen it as quiet. There is good news and bad news in that sadly.
Property owner in Andalucia since 2002. How time flies.

elusive
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby elusive » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:13 pm


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Re: Coronavirus

Postby gerrynag » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:11 pm

markwilding wrote:The one in a thousand is under lockdown. What would the situation have been like had there not been restrictions? One of the reasons it took hold in Madrid was the 120,000 Woman's day march a week before the lockdown.

Human rights can mean many things including the right to life, The friends and families of the one in a thousand might be feeling that the lockdown should have been started earlier and those who contract it in the next months might be relieved that it wasn't allowed to go spiralling out of control in a situation where the health system cannot cope.
The spread of the virus would have been much less if the lockdown had started a week or so before, at the same time as the schools shut down in Madrid, (therby allowing people to disappear to their holiday homes, spreading the virus all over Spain).. Allowing those marches was criminally negligent. The Spanish goverment along with several others round the world, (UK and USA among them), needs to be held accountable for its slow response to the virus and it's lack of preparation to its effects.

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Re: Coronavirus

Postby Lavanda » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:13 pm

A whole lot of things need to change. In the UK there's a huge row about 'whose fault is it that the UK is in a mess in its response to this health crisis?' The Government is blaming a Quango called Public Health England which gets £4.5 billion a year of tax payer's money and has 242 employees on six-figure salaries. I had never even heard of them BUT who gives them legitimacy and money? The Government. What on earth does the Health Secretary do, then? There will be an amazing row right across the world, I suspect. Not before time.

markwilding
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby markwilding » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:39 pm

Something I am find hard to get my head around is An interesting statistic from Elusive's link. 700,000 are being tested in Spain while less than 25% of this figure with capacity for 30% are being tested in the UK.

elusive
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Re: Coronavirus

Postby elusive » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:04 pm

Lavanda wrote:A whole lot of things need to change. In the UK there's a huge row about 'whose fault is it that the UK is in a mess in its response to this health crisis?' The Government is blaming a Quango called Public Health England which gets £4.5 billion a year of tax payer's money and has 242 employees on six-figure salaries. I had never even heard of them BUT who gives them legitimacy and money? The Government. What on earth does the Health Secretary do, then? There will be an amazing row right across the world, I suspect. Not before time.
Plenty of tax revenue in the uk. The country should be drowning in £ when you look at the size of the population and councils with the hug council tax amounts they charge and the amount of houses in each area.They just likes to spend it on quangos that pay huge salaries creating jobs for the boys and girls of the public school elite. Half of them prob went to school/uni with the cabinet. While voting to refuse to give NHS staff pay increases because after all in austerity we are all in it together.!!! :roll:


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