Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

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MiraelCorazon
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Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby MiraelCorazon » Mon Dec 26, 2022 12:50 pm

Hello everyone!

First of all, would I like to thank everyone from this forum as it's just an amazing resource where you can find tons of super useful info!

My wife and I are searching for an inland property to buy in Malaga - Marbella area and I have some questions that I hope to clarify.

1. We would like to buy either finca or a detached villa with a plot of land. From what I have understood so far, the most important document is that the property has a habitation license (which can be difficult to find in "remote" properties). If it doesn't have a license then D(AFO) has to be in place.

So if the property has D(AFO) but not a habitation license officially we can't do anything on this property? By "anything" I mean neither some work outside of the property (let's say we want to build a nice porch or install some 2x2 tool shed) nor (and most important) any job inside (let's say I wanna change the tiles in the bathroom)?
If on the contrary, the property HAS a habitation license can I do the above mentioned jobs without any problems?

2. I'm in touch with the agent for some properties and was told that a "license for the first occupation is only issued for the new houses" but I see a lot of remote properties are newly built and they don't have either a license nor D(AFO). How can it be? How can someone build a house (and many are really fantastic houses) which is technically illegal and even try to sell it? Who the hell on earth will buy it? Or am I missing something here?

3. Another agent said that one of the properties doesn't have an occupation license but has "Es legal con escrituras de obra nueva. It is legal with new construction deeds". Doesn't the property still require a license or if it's new it's somehow exempt?

4. Another agent said that "even townhouses don't have first occupation licenses"! How can THAT be? I may understand about the property in the remote area but the house in the village? So it's illegal as well?

Hope someone can help me with clarification as I'm super confused :crazy:

TIA!

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby dxf » Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:23 pm

Hola,
There is not really any problem with buying an illegal house within reason. If the house is over 6 years old and has no outstanding actions against it, then it is not likely to be pulled down. This is an over simplified explanation; where I live (Chiclana) around half the houses are illegal and they are bought and sold everyday.

If you change an illegal house (say add a bedroom), if no action is taken against you for 6 years after the change then your change becomes part of the property and you cannot be asked to return the property to how it was originally.

In theory, if you buy a house with an AFO, you cannot make changes to it ever - although there are thoughts that they may allow changes sometime in the future

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby Wicksey » Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:12 am

Around here it only had to be 4 years old before it could be 'regularised'. There are tens of thousands of illegal properties in the Axarquia area, and as dxf said, they seem to be bought and sold without too much problem. Our first house here was built without permission in the mid 1990s, and once we discovered that in 2000 we simply had it certified as over 4 years old and then added to the escritura. We sold it without any problem a few years later.

Many houses did obtain a licence for a tool shed (casita del apero) but a 3 bed villa with pool was built instead. We know of two houses here that have been partially demolished leaving the original 24m2 standing, but these properties had demolition orders on them for years and no one would have bought them.

We know of houses that have been sold without a AFO, possibly as they wish to do work and have been advised not to get the AFO until they've done what they wanted to do first. We did apply for permission for a driveway and gates when we moved here and we were told we were mad for doing so by the Spanish neighbours, so all future works have been done without applying for any licences. They continue to build new casitas around us, extending them over the years. Existing cortijos have had major works done, doubling them in size, adding huge terracing areas and pools etc, all without licences.

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby MiraelCorazon » Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:03 pm

Thank you Davexf and Wicksey for your replies!

So, in theory, buying a house without AFO is even better than buying with it as you can do whatever you want in the property, and then once everything is done obtain AFO? If that is correct but then you are buying and living in a house that is not legal AT ALL ?

I can understand if it costs 20-30k but when the house costs a fortune, isn't it scary to invest all your savings in something which is "half legal"?

Honestly don't know what to do now....

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby dxf » Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:14 pm

Hola,

Some people can sleep well in their beds whilst owning an illegal house, which, because of the length of time it has been constructed, will never be pulled down. However, I have met people that couldn't countenance the idea of owning an illegal house. I have lived here in Andalucía for twenty years and have been to many meetings about illegal housing. There is no "quick fix" and to obtain all the usual services will be extremely costly; much more so than if the house had been constructed with the services being available - retro fitting is far more costly.

So, if you are happy to live "off grid" then go for it. If not, then buy a much more expensive legal house and live the dream your way

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby Wicksey » Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:33 pm

We had our electricity connected before there was even an escritura for the land and so we never lived off grid. In the campo there aren't any other services anyway, no drinking water, drainage, landlines, so we have always been used to living like that since 1996 for the times we have owned properties in Spain. We have electricity, a pozo negro for drains, gas bottles for our cooker and nowadays, Wimax for internet, plus agricultural water. Everywhere we have lived in the campo has only ever had electricity as the only mains utility but we have always lived off road which means no postal address and no deliveries out here either. There are no plans to ever put any other services out here. If we want the road cemented we all chip in to pay for it.

We wouldn't knowingly buy a house without papers, but back in 1996 without Google and internet, we were pretty naive and made the mistake of believing the crooked agent we bought the land from and who built our house. I'd be very happy to sell this without a DAFO as I know other people in the campo have been lucky enough to do so. I guess buying on an illegal urbanisation is much more tricky as you would have to contribute towards having drains etc installed at some point and being part of a community with rules and fees seems to be far more tricky.

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby MiraelCorazon » Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:47 am

dxf wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:14 pm Hola,

Some people can sleep well in their beds whilst owning an illegal house, which, because of the length of time it has been constructed, will never be pulled down. However, I have met people that couldn't countenance the idea of owning an illegal house. I have lived here in Andalucía for twenty years and have been to many meetings about illegal housing. There is no "quick fix" and to obtain all the usual services will be extremely costly; much more so than if the house had been constructed with the services being available - retro fitting is far more costly.

So, if you are happy to live "off grid" then go for it. If not, then buy a much more expensive legal house and live the dream your way

Davexf
So if, for example, the house doesn't have AFO but the house itself was built more than 6 years ago it will never be pulled down? If that is correct are there any other legal actions against us we may get if there's no AFO in place?

Also if the electricity is connected then it shouldn't be any issues?

And the last question, can we live in such property officially 365 days a year and get our residence there? Or such property will never have an address and hence no residence for us?

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby Wicksey » Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:19 pm

I would get yourself a decent gestoria who will look at what you want to buy and answer these questions. When we bought our current house, our gestoria went to the local ayuntamiento and obtained a certificate to show that there were no outstanding issues with the property. The houses I know of that I mentioned above that have been partially demolished took years to eventually have the demolition order carried out. I'm sure it was about 15 years in one case and about 5 or 6 in the other.

You can't really presume anything without having the paperwork checked out. There will be houses like our original one we had built that won't have any licences as we regularised it years later. I know of houses that people bought that had an escritura showing land and house, but then they found out the land was not the plot they own, and the house on the escritura was only 24m2 rather than the 3 bed house with the pool they bought. Caveat emptor, as they say.

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby MiraelCorazon » Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:22 pm

I see that a lot of people here mention "escritura" but what is it exactly? Is it some sort of document which shows exactly what you are buying?

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby El Cid » Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:40 pm

There are many types of Escritura. In the UK you might call them "Deeds". When you buy a property you normally sign an "Escritura de Compra Venta". If you bought a building plot to build on, it would be the same. When you built the house the details of the build would be shown in an "Escritura de Obra Nueva". If you had a mortgage there would be an "Escritura Hipotecaria". Copies of other relevant documents would be attached, such as the building licence and habitation certificate. There will be other types of different transactions. They are normally prepared by a Notario.

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby spanish_lad » Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:20 am

We bought our first house last year.

There is no (d)afo. The house is on the catastro. It was built in 1990. It has an escritura. There's no mains services.

Everything was signed at the notary, we have a mortgage on it.

There's lots of properties available if you look long enough. It took us years to find this one
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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby MiraelCorazon » Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:53 pm

spanish_lad wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:20 am We bought our first house last year.

There is no (d)afo. The house is on the catastro. It was built in 1990. It has an escritura. There's no mains services.

Everything was signed at the notary, we have a mortgage on it.

There's lots of properties available if you look long enough. It took us years to find this one
Congrats on your purchase! :thumbup:

We are just a bit scared to buy a house without any (d)afo but at the same time, I kind of realize that if we don't have it then we CAN do whatever we want on the property.

I guess in Andalucia it's completely on a "case-by-case" basis - some houses are ok to buy without dafo some are not. Now I'm planning to hire a lawyer so once we find a property he can do all the necessary checks and tell us if it's ok to buy.

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby Wicksey » Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:49 pm

A gestoria will be better and a lot cheaper than a lawyer (abogado). From our experience they do a far better job. Not sure if there is an equivalent in the UK but they deal with all sorts, wills, tax returns, house purchasing etc.

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby MiraelCorazon » Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:53 pm

Wicksey wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:49 pm A gestoria will be better and a lot cheaper than a lawyer (abogado). From our experience they do a far better job. Not sure if there is an equivalent in the UK but they deal with all sorts, wills, tax returns, house purchasing etc.
I was told that the lawyer usually charges around 1% of the purchase price which ok considering the amount of work that needs to be done. How much does gestoria usually charge?

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby Wicksey » Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:11 pm

I can't remember to be honest but I don't think it was near 1%. Perhaps Spanish Lad who moved recently may shed some light on the fees.

The gestorias seem to do a much better job as they do it all the time. We were always told that abogados here tend to deal with court cases etc rather than conveyancing. The people who bought our old house used one and our gestoria did her job as well as ours as she'd dealt with her many times and she was pretty useless at getting the paperwork in order.

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby MiraelCorazon » Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:41 am

Wicksey wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:11 pm I can't remember to be honest but I don't think it was near 1%. Perhaps Spanish Lad who moved recently may shed some light on the fees.

The gestorias seem to do a much better job as they do it all the time. We were always told that abogados here tend to deal with court cases etc rather than conveyancing. The people who bought our old house used one and our gestoria did her job as well as ours as she'd dealt with her many times and she was pretty useless at getting the paperwork in order.
Thank you soo much Wicksey! Any chance you could send me your gestoria contact? I was soo sure that all the necessary checks are done by the lawyer so that now have no idea where to find gestoria :(

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby Wicksey » Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:51 pm

Our gestoria is in Nerja so some distance away if you are buying in Marbella, or west of Malaga. Perhaps one of the other members here can recommend someone a bit closer to your area?

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby Cádiz » Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:53 pm

I have a friend and the sitsu is as fallows.
Buys wreck 10+ years ago, got architect who obtained license and reformed, basically new build.
There was a question as to who granted the license when job finished and it was never signed off on in Town Hall.
I think the query was that it should have been license for new build.
The house is fine but he does not have First Occupation License.
He had my head wrecked about this a few years ago and i refused to discuss.
Is there anything they need to do...

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Re: Buying a property - First occupation License vs D(AFO)

Postby spanish_lad » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:54 pm

MiraelCorazon wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:53 pm
Congrats on your purchase! :thumbup:

We are just a bit scared to buy a house without any (d)afo but at the same time, I kind of realize that if we don't have it then we CAN do whatever we want on the property.
Thankyou, but please note - you need to get licenses and architects an that, don't just start extending something willy nilly
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