Volkswagen.

Information and questions about driving in Andalucia, buying or importing cars and motorbikes plus legal issues surrounding taxes and licenses.
User avatar
rafiki
Resident
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: Seville

Volkswagen.

Postby rafiki » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:03 am

There is a lot in the papers about Volkswagen fiddling their onboard software to fool labs that diesel emissions are a lot lower than they actually are on the road. The reports then go on to say that tens of thousands of cars will be recalled. But recalled to do what exactly? Just reprogramming the software won't make the cars any less polluting and if the emissions technology existed to do the job they said they were doing it would already be in the cars wouldn't it?
Brian.

User avatar
Enrique
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 8602
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:47 am
Location: Camberley/Alcala La Real

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Enrique » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:35 am

Hi,
Some very light reading from a site Members like to link to..............

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfishe ... consumers/

Be interesting to see if other manufactures are playing the same game............

Certainly need to sort out the silly MPG figures that get quoted these days..........
UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity.

Lyric
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 2323
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 12:36 pm
Location: Torrox Campo

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Lyric » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:46 am

It strikes me that it won't be that difficult and if VW have thought it and done it then others will too, just VW got caught first.

von1068
Andalucia.com Amigo
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:19 pm
Location: Wet and windy Derbyshire ...soon to be sunny Cullar

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby von1068 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:04 am

Mmmmm higher emission charges ..... wonder how long it will be before someone tries to sue for that one!

User avatar
Devils Advocate
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5565
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Sierra Tejeda and England

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Devils Advocate » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:01 am

Property owner in Andalucia since 2002. How time flies.

El Cid
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 15091
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:42 pm
Location: La Herradura, Costa Tropical, Granada

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:32 am

Enrique wrote:
Certainly need to sort out the silly MPG figures that get quoted these days..........
That's very true, but the main reasons the MPG figures are optimistic is due to the way the test is run which is not representative of the way an owner will drive it, rather than software mods.

This case is a bit different as it is the NOx emissions that are being affected, rather than the CO2 figures, which tend to be more directly related to MPG. I haven't seen any suggestions yet that MPG is seriously affected, just the poisonous emissions.

The whole EU test is a joke and I imagine the EPA test is no better. The fact that they allow hybrids to be tested in the same way is crazy. I seem to remember that the BMW i8 does about 125mpg in the test and about 25mpg in real life.

The Toyota non plugin hybrids are almost as bad. How you can claim these are super economical when their range on electric power only is about 2km. It makes the test results look good though!

I understand the EU is talking about changing the test procedures, but that will probably take them years!

Sid

User avatar
rafiki
Resident
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: Seville

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby rafiki » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:40 am

Devils Advocate wrote:http://tinyurl.com/ozo5n65
Thanks DA. That addresses my question. If I understand it correctly the recall will be to carry out as yet undetermined rectifications to reduce NOx to acceptable standards. Interesting the letter states that the affected vehicles are now currently uncertified and therefore presumably unapproved (no COC)!
Brian.

User avatar
Devils Advocate
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5565
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Sierra Tejeda and England

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Devils Advocate » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:59 am

Thanks Brian, it's a hard read but I think you are right with your assumption.
Property owner in Andalucia since 2002. How time flies.

User avatar
Mowser
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 6388
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:42 am
Location: Torre del Mar

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Mowser » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:18 pm

I wonder if this has been done with other VW brands - Skoda, Audi & Seat.
Dave

User avatar
rafiki
Resident
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: Seville

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby rafiki » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:24 pm

Certainly some Audi models are affected in US. The FT are just reporting VW as saying there are eleven million affected vehicles worldwide and have set aside 6.5 billion euros this quarter for rectification purposes.
Brian.

User avatar
costakid
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 4910
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:55 am
Location: malaga este

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby costakid » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:44 pm

85 MPG quoted on 1000cc Smart car. Friend has one and has never had over 60 mpg. They achieve the figures in a wind tunnel not in on road conditions.

User avatar
Devils Advocate
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5565
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Sierra Tejeda and England

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Devils Advocate » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:59 pm

Not sure about the wind tunnel Costa, however they do tape over every shut line and leave accessories off for extra lightness for the mpg fuel run.
Property owner in Andalucia since 2002. How time flies.

User avatar
Enrique
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 8602
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:47 am
Location: Camberley/Alcala La Real

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Enrique » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:15 pm

How they test them.....................

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/fcb/the-fuel- ... scheme.asp


So they don't get DA to go round the block for real driving mode then................... :shock:
UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity.

User avatar
Devils Advocate
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 5565
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Sierra Tejeda and England

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Devils Advocate » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:22 pm

Rolling road.......boring :mrgreen:
Property owner in Andalucia since 2002. How time flies.

El Cid
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 15091
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:42 pm
Location: La Herradura, Costa Tropical, Granada

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:35 pm

Mowser wrote:I wonder if this has been done with other VW brands - Skoda, Audi & Seat.
It applies to the Audi A3 and most of the VW models that use the VW 2 litre tdi engine. I don't think they market the other makes in the US - or at least, not with that engine.

It may well apply to all the VAG cars, but they have yet to prove that.

My guess is that they are all doing it, but VAG got spotted first!

The NOx limits in the US are half the EU limits, and those new limits in the EU (EURO6) only came into effect this month.

Sid

User avatar
rafiki
Resident
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: Seville

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby rafiki » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:14 pm

Brian.

El Cid
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 15091
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:42 pm
Location: La Herradura, Costa Tropical, Granada

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:21 pm

Sadly, that link only seems to work if you are an FT subscriber.

Sid

User avatar
rafiki
Resident
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: Seville

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby rafiki » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:30 pm

Oh what a pity. I thought they allowed non-subscribers a few free views per month before dropping the curtain. I guess that has changed.

It was describing how the software was used to fool the lab testers. It could detect if only two wheels were turning (on the dyno), if there was an unusually constant speed being driven etc. If that was detected then the software would pull out all the stops to reduce emissions. On the road it didn't bother. The reason for this is that reducing emissions reduces performance and increases engine wear.
Brian.

Miro
Andalucia Guru
Posts: 3554
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: Merseyside, formally Torremolinos

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Miro » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:19 am

rafiki wrote:...have set aside 6.5 billion euros this quarter for rectification purposes.
So I guess we won't see VAG engines in a Red Bull Formula 1 car any time soon?
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative," Mordecai Siegal 1935-2010.

User avatar
Trooperman
Resident
Posts: 1010
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:40 pm
Location: Fuente de Piedra

Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Trooperman » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:01 pm

There's great big can of worms with this one!

Cars have been fitted with Exhaust Gas Re-circulatory Valves - EGRs- for a number of years. For the uninitiated, this is a means of re-burning a small proportion of diesel exhaust gas (which also contain some unburnt fuel) by diverting it into the inlet manifold to reduce the amount of NOx emitted, by reducing the temperature of the "burn". Equally, for a number of years, there have been aftermarket companies providing "kits" and means of disabling this mechanism as the idea of sucking filthy air into the engine is anathema to a petrolhead! :evil: My own engine - Land Rover Td5 - has many hints available on the internet as to how to do this and, providing the car passes the (UK that is) MOT test, it's not an illegal modification. In Spain it probably would be but would an ITV tester look for, or be able to find, a modified EGR valve? I doubt it. I would add that I have NOT modified mine. :clap:

Now there are DPFs as well. Diesel Particulate Filters....and the internet is similarly full of means of removing/disabling these as they can cause all sorts of running problems, "limp home" mode, increased fuel consumption, main dealer software re-sets, to name but three.

Bit of light reading here: http://www.ecuflash.co/dpf-removal/ :lol:

It might just be the case that legislators have imposed very stringent targets that may make the engine un-viable in performance terms, without "fiddling". Maybe this is the end of the diesel engine.

I'm not defending either VW, Vauxhall/Opel (who's DPFs are causing many problems), or the home mechanic, just pointing out that it is, as I have suggested, a can of very big worms that may have lasting consequences yet to be defined.
nil illegitimum carborundum


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest