Volkswagen.

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Miro
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Miro » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:36 pm

Thanks DA (yes, the 1.6 Focus was normally aspirated/no turbo) and Sid for your comments about torque in modern petrol engines. I'm convinced! I'll probably go for the 1.8 petrol Octavia next. I'd probably consider a Superb if it didn't have such a naff name!
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Miro
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Miro » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:41 pm

Devils Advocate wrote:
Lyric wrote:Slightly wandering when did they start injecting urea ? and do they all do it ?
I don't understand the question Lyric.
I think Lyric is referring to something young reprobates used to do late on a Saturday night on the way home from the boozer, just for a laugh. Locking fuel filler caps made it much harder though. And no, we didn't all do it, just some of my naughtier friends :wink:
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peteroldracer
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby peteroldracer » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:52 pm

So it was the cars taking the p1zz rather than the manufacturer?
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Lyric
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Lyric » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:59 pm

Enrique has answered the question and the products concerned are what I was meaning. The top up interval is so infrequent that I won't worry.
My vehicle specification is determined by Senior Management :
Must have a sill height that the dogs can manage in their dotage, this will be in the 50cm region as our current car has.
Must have room for them both to be comfortable while the seats remain up.
Our current car fails this test we have the back seats permanently folded.
Dogs are big lumps 28kg and 39kg respectively so a bit of space required.
Must not look like a van.
Must be able to do campo tracks.
Must be acceptable to chauffeur who would like a BMW.
This is not easy.

El Cid
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:22 pm

Lyric wrote:I seem to think that the modern diesel has a system for injecting an additive to reduce emissions and that this is Urea, I just wondered when it started. I got it from a long term test of the Citroen C4 Grand Picasso, one of the vehicles that fulfils high requirement for carrying two large dogs.
They have been doing it for quite a long time on the big commercial diesels. It is less common on smaller engines. The new VW EA288 engine, that came out last year,was designed to meet euro6 and more importantly, the US EPA tests. That uses a normal NOx trap , but also has the ability to use Adblue, which is the word used to describe the urea injection system. The larger vehicles with that engine, use it, such as the Tiguan SUV (which is a Golf on stilts) whereas it isn't needed on the Golf.

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Enrique » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:39 pm

Hi,
Dates when PSA Peugeot Citroën additive particulate filter was introduced.........

"PSA Peugeot Citroën additive diesel particulate filter, a technological solution for eliminating particulate emissions

To eradicate particulate emissions even the tiniest particulates, PSA Peugeot Citroën invented the additive diesel particulate filter (DPF). This innovative device made its world debut on the Peugeot 607 in 2000, then on other models from 2007 and generalized on all the Diesel vehicles Peugeot and Citroën from 2009, two years before the Euro 5 standard which made it compulsory in January 2011. The DPF additive technology developed by PSA Peugeot Citroën is the most efficient one on the market today."

The full link................
http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/f ... ate-filter
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Miro » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:59 pm

Just as an interesting side point, especially as Skoda are now hitting the headlines, I was browsing Autotrader (UK) previously when I stated that my next ride may be a 1.8 petrol Octavia. It compares very favourably with the 2.0 diesel, which is what I would have gone for if I hadn't stumbled upon this interesting thread. I will probably not buy another car until we return to the UK (one day!), but just in case, I decided to browse autoscout24.es, which to my surprise turned up a total of 11 petrol second hand Octavias - in the whole of Spain.
I then compared figures on autotrader uk and autoscout.es, and roughly 52% of the cars on autotrader are petrol, but only 31% on autoscout.es are gasolina. Does this suggest that (as usual) Spain is a bit behind the trend? Comparing new Skodas UK/Spain is hard, because the model specs are completely different, but in Spain at least, there's virtually no difference in price between diesel and petrol models, and judging by the majority of cars on autoscout, Spaniards cover a lot of miles (maybe to compensate for never leaving Spain), so maybe that's why diesel is still far more popular.
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:00 pm

Spain has always had a high percentage of diesel cars. It is currently 65% vs 50% in the UK. 15 years ago, the UK was only 15%, while Spain has been fairly consistent, although it dropped slightly over the last few years.

There is no doubt that a like for like diesel is more expensive than a petrol version, particularly with the cheaper cars. Taking the VAG most popular options, they have a 110hp 1.6l diesel and a 110hp 1.2l turbo petrol.

Checking the latest configurators, using these two engines, the extra cost seems to vary from make to make. A Skoda Octavia is €1630 extra, the SEAT Leon is €2280 extra and the VW Golf is €2820 extra. These are for same spec cars of each make.

Taking the Octavia as an example, using the "real" consumption figures, the petrol car does 48.2 mpg and the diesel car does 57.2mpg. Taking Spanish fuel prices, where diesel is about 10% cheaper than petrol, the saving for every 1000km is €16.53. If you divide that into the extra purchase cost, it takes just under 100000km to get your money back!

It will be even worse in the UK because you don't have the benefit of cheaper diesel.

Sid

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Miro » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:40 pm

Not disputing a word you say, Sid, but the comparison I made (on skoda.es) was for the Octavia L&K:
1.8TSi 180CV DSG 7 vel; combined 5.6 l/100kms, 128 g/km = €26.450
2.0TDi CR 150CV DSG 6 vel; comb. 4.5 l/10kms, 117 g/km = €26.760
Based on this, it would still be a difficult choice.

(On skoda uk, the respective prices come out at £27,750 for the petrol, and £27,715 for the diesel. Again, hard call)
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:25 pm

You cannot compare the much more powerful 1.8tsi with the bog standard 2.0tdi. The equivalent comparison is the 1.4tsi vs the 2.0tdi as both are 150hp. The diesel is €2260 more expensive. On the L&K model the 1.4tsi is not an option, which is why there was no real difference.

Incidentally the CO2 is slightly less on the smaller petrol than on the diesel, probably because it can run on only two cylinders at high speed when not under load.

Sid

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Miro » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:31 pm

Got it! Thanks Sid. It's the 1.8 petrol for me then.
Last edited by Miro on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Nimrod » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:52 pm

Do spanish main dealers do big discounts?
There's always a discount to be got in the UK on established models and even bigger discounts if you buy via a broker such as as Drive the Deal,Broadspeed etc.

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:01 pm

The situation is very different in Spain. In the UK, the dealers get bigger margins to play with and give bigger discounts.

In Spain the manufacturer decides on the discounts and allows the dealer to include them in the deal. When I bought a new car recently, the dealer just pulled the data up on screen and told me what discounts he had for me that month. They may have more flexibility on cars they have in stock that were not ordered by a customer, but most of the time it seems that you place and order and wait for it to be built.

That said, they were reasonably generous, and including the Plan PIVE scrappage deal, I ended up with a 28% discount.

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costakid
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby costakid » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:37 pm

The whole of the VAG group has admitted they have been fiddling. I think a lot more brands are at it and just waiting for sh== to hit the fan.

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby gus-lopez » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:20 pm

Miro wrote:which to my surprise turned up a total of 11 petrol second hand Octavias - in the whole of Spain.
I then compared figures on autotrader uk and autoscout.es, and roughly 52% of the cars on autotrader are petrol, but only 31% on autoscout.es are gasolina. Does this suggest that (as usual) Spain is a bit behind the trend? Comparing new Skodas UK/Spain is hard, because the model specs are completely different, but in Spain at least, there's virtually no difference in price between diesel and petrol models, and judging by the majority of cars on autoscout, Spaniards cover a lot of miles (maybe to compensate for never leaving Spain), so maybe that's why diesel is still far more popular.

No 85% of ALL vehicles sold & still in use in Spain are diesel.It is rarer than hens teeth to find a petrol vehicle & it really only used to be the real high end stuff that would be petrol & some base starter models.. Around here now even the porsche cayenne & panamera drivers are buying the 3 L diesel .

What you have to remember is that the diesel when invented ran on anything if you were stuck. It is a compression/ignition engine meaning you do not need any spark. Once ignition is achieved by the high compression it will run until you remove the source of fuel. In some cases if it can draw in through the air intake any floating hydro-carbons it will continue to run even with the fuel source off ! Many diesel engined units in factory settings had to be fitted with shut off valves on the air intakes to prevent this.

Anyway ,I digress. The idea of the diesel is that it would run on any fuel available.It wasn't meant to be clean. In the event of a war then the only diesels that will continue to run will be the old mechanically pumped ones that you can throw in oil,paraffin, turps, solvents , whisky,rapeseed,sunflower ,etc:etc.

When I was looking for a motorhome last year the main priority was one that A, was diesel. B, had no electronics of any description & C ,would run on anything if required.
A "bonus" with the one I bought was that being diesel & under 2,5 Tonnes Boris regards it as exempt from the LEZ & gave me a nice certificate stating that I am classed as Euro 5. :lolno: Means I got to drop off /pick up the missus at Heathrow rather than her having to get the bus- :lol:
Another bonus is that the Germans accept it as proof to allow you access into all there emission zoned cities ! :crazy: Seems it is more about the money than actually reducing emissions.
My Spanish diesel car has the EGR completely removed & just blanking plates. The catalyst is still there as the exceptionally high temp of the exhaust ( it'll melt your crocks at the back !) means it has never given a problem. If it did then the guts would be removed.

When i was browsing around for insurance quotes some years back it was pointed out to me that the spanish industry assumed 35000kms /year was the average. I couldn't believe it at the time but most of my Spanish farming neighbours ,who appear to be around all the time , average about 1000kms/week . I only average 7-800 :lol:
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El Cid
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:22 pm

gus-lopez wrote:
My Spanish diesel car has the EGR completely removed & just blanking plates. The catalyst is still there as the exceptionally high temp of the exhaust ( it'll melt your crocks at the back !) means it has never given a problem. If it did then the guts would be removed.
So what you are saying is that you have removed the EGR which will result in your car emitting more noxious gases and are quite happy to remove the catalytic converter to make it even worse?

And I thought it was VW that were cheating!

I suppose you expect us all to congratulate you for such a well thought out public spirited move - or have I missed something?

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peteroldracer
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby peteroldracer » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:31 pm

And it passes the ITV?
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Mowser
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Mowser » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:17 pm

Check if your car is affected here (UK only).
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/recalls
Dave

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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby Torrox_campo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:54 pm

El Cid wrote:.............
So what you are saying is that you have removed the EGR which will result in your car emitting more noxious gases and are quite happy to remove the catalytic converter to make it even worse?
And I thought it was VW that were cheating!
I suppose you expect us all to congratulate you for such a well thought out public spirited move - or have I missed something?
Sid
It's a difficult question to answer. Currently I have a Land Rover Freelander 2 because of the track near my house in Spain. My Freelander 2 is only 2 year old so the EGR must be on to pass MOT (not required yet) and the DPF is self regenerated. In a Freelander2 forum there are quite a few members stated that they used a blanking plate to stop exhaust gas re-enter the inlet valve, these can be done for older freelander 2 from 2007 to 2011 I believe, and they can pass MOT with this RGR blanking plate. The reason they disabled the EGR because with it on, the engine isn't responsive and becomes hesitate when moving from stationary. Imagine at a roundabout you see a gap then press the gas pedal and the car won't response for a couple of seconds! Quite few freelander 2 owners overcame the hesistation problem by removing the EGR, so can we blame them for this?

My previous car was a new 2008 Golf GTSport 1.4 TSI twin turbo 170HP petrol engine. Before that I bought another secondhand 2007 Golf GTSport but this one is a 170 HP 2 litres turbo diesel. In the diesel I experience the limp mode several times when the DPF clogged up and each time I had to get on the motorway and run the car at 60-70 MPH for at least 30 minutes. The dealer refused to replace the DPF so I was allowed to return the car in exchange for the petrol version. I really love the 1.4 TSI twin turbo engine and during the ownership of over 7 years (55K Miles) average MPG is about 42MPG and I only needed to replace 4 tyres and some wipers. I had to replace the Golf with the Freelander 2 because the Spanish tracks near Torrox, it's a 2.2 litres diesel, the MPG is about 40 MPG but I am quite happy since it copes quite well with all the bad tracks near Torrox and Competa.
Last edited by Torrox_campo on Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

El Cid
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Re: Volkswagen.

Postby El Cid » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:00 pm

Interesting observations.

Clearly there are some very good reasons for taking off EGRs, Cats and DPFs, but they were put there for a reason, which is to meet restrictive emission regulations. Yes, most of these will be to the detriment to performance, but I guess the manufacturers would say that if you don't like the performance buy a more powerful model etc. I note that in the UK the absence of a DPF is an MOT failure.

It was DA's comments to me about DFP failures that was one of the reasons I changed to petrol.

The truth is, most users couldn't care less about NOx emissions - until the VW thing blew up, most people had no idea about NOx. They are worried about MPG and the only reason they know about CO2 emissions is that in the UK they have a huge effect on costs due to the various taxes that use them as a base point.

In Spain the only tax that is affected by CO2 emissions is the initial registration tax. Road tax is still based on engine size and I have no idea how they calculate "benefit in kind" tax.

The 1.4tsi was a good engine, apart from some reliability problems with the two blowers, but the new 1.4tsi, which is only about 2 years old, is even better and the latest models have ACT which allows it to run on two cylinders. It's the nicest engine I have ever driven.

Sid


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