Working the land - advice please

[alig99]

We have about 5000m2 of olives which we have yet got round to tidying up we have owned the land for 3 years. The last couple of days we have had a one or two chaps pruning the olive trees and clearing beneath them. When asked what permission they had we were told that the a chap who had once owned the land and then sold it to the builder who built the house and land we bought had given them permission. Now whilst we are ok with what they are doing and would give them our permission for the charge of a 2 litres of olive oil what are the implications of giving them permission ie working nothing and then giing us a couple of litres of oil for the priviledge, do they have any rights over the land over time? and secondly how do we approach the once owner about him giving the men permission? we don't want to upset anyone but we need to know any legal implications inparticular. We don't have any notices to say its private land. Your advices most welcome. many thanks Ali

[Enrique]

Hi alig99,
There is some info in this post if you want to look at what the "officials" think you have land wise....

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21692&p=192418&hilit=sigpac#p192418

You would have been paying "land tax" on your plot too..separate from the house IBI

Your plot will have maker stones/posts on the boundary .

I would have a chat with the one time owner of your trees and find out why he sent the pruners in, it may be he didn't like you leaving the plot unattended for so long

If you don't have time at the moment to do your olives you could set up an arrangement that he looks after them and takes a cut of the proceeds , I did a 75/25% deal with my neighbour to do mine some years ago for two seasons. Now I'm a tree hugging Olive farmer

[alig99]

Enrique,thank you for your response.
"You would have been paying "land tax" on your plot too..separate from the house IBI" would we? this has not been mentioned by our very very consciencious solicitor, he hasn't asked for any money to pay the tax for us ? What the name of the tax?

"Your plot will have maker stones/posts on the boundary" we haven't any marker stones or posts on part of our land, its bound by a riverbed and on oneside the land is worked by the owner thus making a natural boundary, but the other side blends with other land that is not worked. I guess you are therefore recommending that we put in boundary markers?

We had decided that we would have a conversation with the previous owner. Like you we are happy if someone wants to work the land/trees and we have indeed conveyed to the workers that we would appreciate a litre or 2 of olive oil. We did that when we caught them working the trees last year, unfortunately no oil arrived

Any other peoples thoughts gratefully received. Ali

[Enrique]

Hi alig99,
Up until last year we had a separate "land tax", was a small amount circa 4 €
Last year they put it on the house tax and issued only one bill, from the local town hall.
You should have your Poligono/Parcela numbers that you can put into Sigpac and see where your land fits in with the rest around, it also shows the trees on your land.........well at least mine does
What about your olive subsidy you should be getting that too.
The maker stone/posts my well have been covered if the land has been left.......get the previous land owner to walk you round the plot.

[janda_grant2]

We pay our "land tax" on the same bill as our IBI, but it is calculated at a different amount. It's about half the cost of the "house plot" land

[chrissiehope]

Now I'm very confused

We have two plots, one with just olive trees and one with the house and olive trees. Each parcela has its own catastral ref number, which brings up the correct areas on the virtual office map.

BUT we pay our IBI on a completely different reference number, which also appears in our escritura (as do the correct numbers). This different ref no doesn't bring up a map in the virtual office (I believe 'urban' land isn't mapped ?). The description in the virtual office refers to a property of approx 35 sqm built on 45 sq m plot (I might have those figures the wrong way round) - this bears no resemblance to our parcelas or house !

We have queried this at some length with the man from Malaga who comes to the Town Hall once a week, and have been assured that everything is correct

Nowhere is there a mention of a separate tax just for the land.......

Re working the trees - when we bought our property, we did a deal with the previous owner for him to farm the olives for 10 years, in return we got the price reduced . We have never been offered any oil

[janda_grant2]

Each parcela has its own catastral ref number, which brings up the correct areas on the virtual office map.

We only have one casatral fref, which would be why we have only one bill. If you havre two they are classed as seperate plots and will bve charged for seperately.

[chrissiehope]

No, the point is that we are only charged for the 'strange' ref no (very small build on very small plot) and not at all for the 2 'correct' ref nos.

We are assured (tho unfortunately not in writing ) that all three numbers are somehow cross-referenced in the system ...

[Retro P]

I'm not quite clear about the original post, are you saying that these guys come onto your land and harvest it for themselves or they just turn up and do free work for you ??

[chrissiehope]

Enrique mentioned the olive subsidy. Can he give more information on this and how it is calculated and obtained.

[Enrique]

Hi chrissiehope,

no he can't at this time..........the previous owner transferred the subsidy over when I bought the trees, I think it is currently calculated on the size of the land the trees stand on, was on the number trees originally, some years ago.
Need to wait for the other "Olive Farmers " to pick up on this.

[Lavanda]

I've just posted in 'General Topics' to ask about the olive subsidy. When we first bought our finca we were told the previous owner had the subsidy until 2011 when a new 'round' starts. To save admin. the E.U. sets the subsidies for five years and whoever applies, gets it for the next five years, irrespective of who the owner is. There's some loop-hole about the difference between the 'owner' and the person who 'farms' the land. It may be that these guys are making 'claim' to be the 'farmers' to put in an application for the new subsidy. It's important to get your application in and make your claim otherwise the subsidy is 'gone' for the next five years.

[alig99]

I'm not quite clear about the original post, are you saying that these guys come onto your land and harvest it for themselves or they just turn up and do free work for you ??

They turn up on our land and harvest it for themselves, on enquiry they had been given permission from the owner who sold the land to the builder that we bought the land from! ali

[katy]

So let me get this straight:
You have bought a house and land (with olive trees)
Someone comes along and enters your land without asking your permission.
Why does the previous owner think he has a right to do this?
Even if you don't mind surely they should have asked, they are playing the three card trick!

Do you know under the spanish constitution there is a right that no-one can enter another persons home/land without permission. Tell them to b***** off until they learn some manners and respect.

[alig99]

ahh Katy thats the sort of info I was thinking about but not tried it yet because of of upsetting locals. Luckily the person they think they have permission from is local and speaks english and we have met so we will be having words ali

[Lavanda]

Is your land classified as rustico or campo land? In Spain, the campo belongs to everyone insomuch as everyone can walk everywhere. We were initially surprised that hunters walked on our land during the hunting season. Before the house was built they would shoot across it as well. It was up to us to exclude hunters by going to the Ayuntamiento and formally excluding hunting on our land.

In Spring here everyone picks wild asparagus. We have lots. People walk all over the place and pick the stuff. Most people do ask now that the house is built. We give permission because we cannot stop them. In return they respect the area around the house. However, figs, olives and other 'cash crops' are never picked as they are 'money'.

Here various village people run sheep on various fincas 'by agreement'. Anyone buying such a finca would 'inherit' the right of the person to have sheep grazing rights until their agreement runs out. It's a bit like buying a house with a sitting tenant.

I would say these chaps might have various rights to walk on your land BUT they do not have a right to harvest the olives UNLESS the previous owner did give them permission in writing. These previous permissions can sometimes 'stand' for up to seven years and there is a legal name for them but I forget what it is. Your solicitor should have checked if there were any outstanding agreements before you bought the place. Ask to see their written permission from the previous owner. If they have one it might be tough luck on you for the next few years. If they do not follow Katy's advice.