Lawyers role after signing at notary

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Technobear
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Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Technobear » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:49 pm

Hi,

A year ago we signed our paperwork on a rural property at the notary, we were told to expect the official paperwork to be complete in about 3 months, but are still waiting.

Could some one help me understand what the process is after? What paperwork goes where, and what is the role of the lawyers in this process?

It is a complex transaction (many borders/neighbours) but a year seems excessive, should I be concerned? (the lawyer does not seem worried, and says it just takes time)
Any recommendations on what I should do? If anything?

Thanks for any advice.

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Beachcomber » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:46 pm

The taxes have to be paid on the escritura within one month and it has to be presented to the property registry for registration which can take anything from six weeks to three months. Any problems over boundaries should have been settled even before you paid the deposit and certainly prior to signing before the notary so this should not be causing a delay now.

Contact your lawyer and tell him you would like to have your registered copy of the escritura or, failing that, a proper explanation as to why it is taking so long. It could be that the escritura has been rejected by the property registrar for any number of reasons. If you have registration details you could apply for an extract from the property registry to see if the registration has actually been carried out.

Most importantly, do not allow yourself to be fobbed off.

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Trooperman
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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Trooperman » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:54 pm

You probably don't want commiserations....but you have mine regardless.

It took me 7 years to get it all done - registration on the Catastro records and land registry in Ronda and then payment of the IBI bills going back 4 years.


Oh! Yes! And a whole stack more of money in lawyer's fees, notary fees and taxes.

You may, following my personal experience (but I stress it was peculiar to me), have to be concerned in that there was a sin of omission at the notary's resulting in some reason why the registration process couldn't be concluded. If this happens it seems inertia sets in - the authorities do nothing, your lawyer (maybe) does nothing, you pay no tax and in general nothing at all occurs....and all seems to be OK in as much as you live there, enjoy life, have no-one disputing your title etc ...........until you eventually try to sell.

My advice is to badger your lawyer (as I did) and if no reasonable explanation is forthcoming, go somewhere else, making sure the next lawyer is well versed in the type of property and transaction you're undertaking.

It sounds as if it's a "country" property. Is that correct?
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Technobear
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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Technobear » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:39 pm

Thanks for the quick replies... Very interesting...

Fobbing off, yeah, I've been chasing them monthly for about 8 months now...

As you say, basically the lawyer have said it was the notary, that they only got the paperwork from them a month ago... And that now they just sent it off to the land registry.

Yes, it's a country property, well actually more a farm with a ruin :)
in fairness the borders and catastro were all sorted out prior to signing ... A good job appeared to have been done by both vendor and lawyer at that stage (notary even commented on this) - I guess this is why I've had faith in the lawyer and trusted him that "it's in the works"

I've now expressed my concern to the lawyer of the legal risks involved with the sale not registered (ie fraudulent seeller selling multiple times), and so hopefully can use that to ensure he pushes it along.

I'd like to get this sorted before the building starts, just for piece of mind... Of course that's been delayed too, but thats another (unrelated) story of fun with authorities and planning permission :)

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Beachcomber » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:12 pm

A notary will usually have the escritura ready for collection within a week. You can check whether the lawyer is telling the truth because there will be a date stamp and an invoice for the notary's fees showing the date on which it was issued. You could go back to the notary yourself and check.

The danger in the property not being registered is not only multiple re-selling but the fact that the previous (currently registered) owner could also take out a mortgage on the property or it could be embargoed for any unpaid debts he may have.

In order to prevent this your lawyer could have applied for an 'asiento de presentación', a procedure which protects the property but this is only valid for 30 days after which it has to be renewed but not for eight months!

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby julian » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:23 pm

ask the notary for a copia simple and take it to the registry to ask if it has been presented.

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DavidSearl
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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby DavidSearl » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:04 pm

FROM DAVID SEARL

FOR TECHNOBEAR

Let's get serious.

Did your seller have a title deed, an "escritura", registered in the Property Registry?

If so, when you signed to purchase the property, was this deed the legal description of what you purchased?

It should be entered in the Property Registry the following day, if so.

If not, you have not read "You and the Law in Spain" or anything else warning you about how to buy Spanish property.

Please stop using terms like "paperwork". Use the correct Spanish terms. If you do not know them, insist that your lawyer explain them to you, in words that you can understand.

If he cannot, get another lawyer who can.

Sorry to sound rough here, but let's get serious.

Good luck with it, David Searl
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Julie
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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Julie » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:22 pm

I don't think he came on here for a lecture, paperwork is understood by everybody, maybe you should take your place with the grammer police that came on this forum, because you have written a book or two,doesn't mean you can speak to people as though they are idiots !
I am disguted with your reply to someone asking for advice.
No soporto ver la casa sucia, ahora mismo me levanto y apago la luz.

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby julian » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:27 pm

whilst "paperwork" is understood by all it doesn´t explain what papers were signed, many different types of "paperwork" can be signed in a notary , and without knowing what "paperwork" was signed it is impossible to advise on how long the paperwork" can take to be completed.

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Beachcomber » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:45 pm

He used a lawyer in whom, naively, he put his trust. He shouldn't need to have to buy any books about the law in Spain.

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Technobear » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:47 am

sorry, i used inaccurate terms... lets get serious :)

yes, we had prior to the sale, seen escritura and the paperwork that we 'signed' was the escritura,
though from reading later it was more likely to be the "escritura de compraventa"...
(we got a copy of this, and looked very much like the previous escritura)

it had been described to us as the escritura, though difficult to know exactly, as id not seen these escrituras before, but suffice to say, they are officially stamped documents, detailing exact buyer/seller details , and very exact specification of the sale taking place i.e. property details, its boundaries, catastro references etc.

yes, i had read up about the procedure in a few books in advance,
ooh, lets not be vague again... which one, ah yes, "you and the law in spain" :) (which i purchased 6 months prior to purchase). i even followed its checklist... page 57.

unfortunately, it says, of course that it will be all be done in 2-3 months, and says (helpfully) "If the matter drags on , you had better look into what is happening"

sorry, half in jest, but i assure you im not naive, and i do (and had done ) my homework ;) ... but sometimes situations dont go according to whats been written down as the procedure... .hence my questions here...

anyways, as i mentioned in my first post, this is what i did, i start chasing once the 2-3 months had elapsed, but then was repeatedly told, "they are waiting for paperwork' , or "they had not received anything" etc etc

lets be clear, i know what is/was suppose to happen, my question, is really - when do you say enough is enough, and then what are your next steps.

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby wendyakemp » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:59 pm

I don't know if this will be of any help but I didn't use a solicitor even though I am not up on Spanish conveyancing.
Don't worry I was slated at the time on this forum.
The notary gave me the signed original and a copy of Escritura and a form for the tax office which he completed so it just had to be handed in with the cash.
I went to the tax office and paid, then took the stamped form and the original to the records office, sorry don't know the correct name, they issued a receipt and charged a few euros ( I think about 15- 20), and said to come back in a couple of months.....it was near the end of the year and we didn't return until Feb.
We collected everything which was signed and stamped.

p.s. while I was in the records office they checked to make sure there were no debts on the property and that the names were correct.

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Beachcomber » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:01 pm

Just to reiterate that if you are getting nowhere with your lawyer go back to the notary and ask for a copia simple of the escritura. You are entitled to this as an interested party and it may cost a few euros. Do not ask for a 'segunda copia' at this stage. You will need to give the approximate date of signing and produce the same ID with which you identified yourself before the notary

This will provide you with the registration details with which you can either apply for a nota simple from the property registry either online, for which you will have to register and pay about €10, or by going to the office of the property registrar where it will cost less. This will show whether the property has been registered in your name or whether it is still in the previous owner's name.

If it is still in the name of the previous owner ask if it has been presented for inscription and whether it has been rejected by the property registrar because of some kind of defect. Unless you have a good command of the language take an interpreter with you to ensure that you understand what has happened.

I would suspect that, as the procedure appears to have been somewhat complicated, the property registrar has rejected the escritura as being defective and that it is in the process of being resolved, or that the lawyer does not know what to do in order to resolve it.

If it is, in fact, defective the defect has to be resolved and there will have to be an escritura of clarification or amendment for the will be an additional fee for the notary.

I don't think reading any books is going to resolve your problem. The only thing that is going to do that is your own tenacity.

Wendyakemp, you wouldn't have been slated by me for not using the services of a lawyer! It sounds as though you managed quite well without one and probably did yourself a great favour. :thumbup:

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby katy » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:08 pm

Beachcomber wrote:He used a lawyer in whom, naively, he put his trust. He shouldn't need to have to buy any books about the law in Spain.


Exactly! Are buyers now supposed to study spanish property law before buying, talk about keeping a dog and barking yourself :roll: Large international companies employ lawyers in far flung outposts to represent them on multi million pound deals without knowing anything about the countries law, yet in Spain we cannot trust them to do a simple property transaction! Next big thing will be employing someone to supervise the Lawyer :wtf:

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Re: Lawyers role after signing at notary

Postby Technobear » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:06 pm

Thanks guys, for both the support and useful information.

I've been reviewing the communication that I've had with the lawyer, and I think beachcomber your correct, in between the lines, it looks like there has been some complication - as the lawyer was talking about extra documents going back and forth and even photographs ... I'm guessing perhaps he is doing it behind the scenes and didn't feel the need to involve me in the details... as he feels it can be resolved - he also seemed a little frustrated saying he also wanted this completed and closed.

Anyways, sound like my course of action is clear, tell him I want to know exactly what is going on, ask if there has been complications, if so what... and also follow beachcombers advice and get in touch with the notary. ( bit of problem as I'm not based in Spain yet, but im sure I can organize this)

Thanks again, much appreciated


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