Rules re: Macro communities

Information and questions about the Law in Spain and Andalucia.
westend
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Rules re: Macro communities

Postby westend » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:13 pm

I have a property on an urbanisation. Until recently there was no macro community although the urbanisation itself isn't new but now as there are 'improvements' that (legally) need to be made a macro community has been established to deal with these - with the support of a majority of the property owners.

The urbanisation is made up of about 100 individual villas and 50 'casas adosadas' - these smaller houses are split into 3 separate communities, these already have their own 'communities' with their own rules and fees etc.

So far so good .........unfortunately at the first meeting of the new Macro Community we were informed that the villa and plot owners would have one vote per property and the three communities would have three votes ( one per community) - the three presidents of the communities being the representative for all the property owners of that community.

When objections were raised we were told that:

" everything the (macro) Committee does has to comply with the law and the current
Horizontal Property Law states that poblados or communities within a Macro
Community hold their own meetings at which every owner votes and then their
President attends the main Macro meeting holding the vote for that poblado."
further this arrangement was the only one the local ayuntamiento of Estepona would deal with."

When I read " You & the Law in Spain" I thought this Horizontal Property Law would apply to blocks of flats or properties that shared corridors and roofs - and I am not sure if it applies in our case.

Also - isn't it possible for a Macro Community to draw up its own rules and statutes - so could we, as the owners of these smaller properties, insist on 'one property one vote'

I hope you can help to clear this up as it is causing so much trouble and ill-feeling that I fear it will undermine the hard work that so many have put into forming this macro-community.

Jool
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby Jool » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:42 pm

Horizontal property law applies to any residential premises that have communal areas and where properties adjoin so duplexes etc will be affected by this

I hope David answers you soon as I think you need specialist input.....Quote below is taken from a pdf document relating to master communities by Castillo TRaductores

On the regime of private real estate developments
Section 24
1. The special system of property ownership provided for in section 396 of the Civil Code shall apply to
real estate developments that–
a) are formed by two or more detached buildings or independent plots used mainly as dwellings or
commercial premises; and where
b) the owners of such buildings or of the units in which they are divided participate in an indivisible coownership
of other immovable elements, roads, installations or facilities.
2. The private real estate developments referred to in the preceding subsection may–
a) form one community of property owners through any of the procedures provided for in section 5.2.
In this case they shall be subject to the provisions of this Act, which shall be entirely applicable to
them; or
b) form a master community comprising various communities of property owners. For this purpose, the
master deed of the master community must be executed by the sole owner of the development or by
all the presidents of the component communities, duly authorised by a majority resolution of their
respective assemblies. The master deed shall include the description of the whole real estate
development and of the common elements, roads, installations and facilities. It shall also contain the
participation quota established for each one of the component communities. These shall be jointly
liable for the expenses of the master community. The master deed and the statutes may be registered
in the Land Registry.
info.castillotraductores.com CASTILLO TRADUCTORES, S.L.
3. The aforementioned master community shall have the same legal status as communities of property
owners and shall be governed under the provisions of this Act with the following specifications:
a) The general assembly of property owners shall be formed, unless otherwise agreed, by the president of each component community in representation of its individual unit owners;
b) the adoption of resolutions for which the law prescribes qualified majorities shall require, in turn, a prior appropriate majority at the general assembly meeting of each one of the communities
belonging to the master community;
c) unless the general assembly decides otherwise, the provisions of section 9 concerning a reserve fund
shall not apply to the master community.
The powers of the governing bodies of the master community shall only cover common immovable
elements, roads, installations and facilities or services. Their decisions shall in no event impair the powers
of the governing bodies of the component communities.
4. The provisions of this Act, with the same specifications indicated in the preceding section, shall apply
to those private real estate developments that do not adopt any of the legal forms indicated in
subsection 2 of this section, as a complement to the covenants adopted by the property owners.

Parilla
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby Parilla » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:12 am

Agree with Jool, I think you need David on this one.
I'm certainly no expert but I understood that a Macro Community could only be comprised of separate communities existing within the developmentit, with the president of each community being the Macro repesentative. If your 100 or so private villas have not formed their own community,it is difficult to see how this could work.

Anyway, if it happens you have my deepest sympathy, as Macros are a nightmare. We have one and it is like a secret society - the Macro board are accountable to no one, and run the job like their own little kingdom.

Best of luck.
Parilla

westend
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby westend » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:36 pm

Thanks for your replies - and sympathy!


Re: Jool's reply perhaps David could clear up the meaning or interpretation of No.3 a) of the extract he quotes:

"The general assembly of property owners shall be formed, unless otherwise agreed, by the president of each component community in representation of its individual unit owners...."


Does this mean that the issue of "one property, one vote" ( rather than the 3 small existing communities being forced to simply have "1 vote per community") should / could be put to a vote ? -rather than "laid down by the law" ?

This is how I understand Jool's reply

Jool
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby Jool » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:32 am

It would seem that "unless otherwise agreed" would signify that, but in reality it could be a lot harder to manage - can you get hold of the rules in spanish perhaps (maybe via the Translators who did the english version)?

westend
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby westend » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:47 am

good idea - but how do I get hold of the original spanish - without employing solicitor - any ideas ?

julian
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby julian » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:56 pm

buy the book !

Jool
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby Jool » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:33 pm

Castillo Traductores SL ??? They must have the spanish version to be able to translate it into english or google it on google.es in spanish.

Parilla
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby Parilla » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:07 pm

Westend, you should find the full Spanish text of the LPH at

www.comunidades.com/comunidades/legisla ... ma_lph.htm

Parilla

westend
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby westend » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:55 pm

Well, I am impressed by this forum - thank you muchisimo 'Parilla' !

I will get my head down to it tonight.

Incidently I have the book "You and the Law in Spain" - it was one of the first books I was advised to buy when I talked of buying a house in Spain!

But the answer to the question I asked the forum is not clear - or at least I find the answer ambiguous.

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DavidSearl
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby DavidSearl » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:09 pm

FROM DAVID SEARL

FOR WESTEND

It is true that macro-communities present one more level of complication and give rise to a new set of communication problems, at the very least.

1. My people simply cannot understand how you can form a macro-community with 103 owners, three of whom are Communities and 100 of whom are individuals. That is not the way it is supposed to work. There are other legal systems to organize such combinations, such as a Junta de Compensacion, which might bring together a pig farm, some houses, a small factory, and other owners with common interests.

2. My people simply cannot understand how there can be 100 villas in an area without a Community being formed. The townhouses have their Communities properly constituted, it appears, and the villa owners must do the same.

3. A macro-community joins individual Communities together, controlling only the roads, sewage, lighting, pools, gardens or whatever property is common to all the Communities. It does not include individual owners.

4. Yes, Horizontal Law now applies to groupings of detached houses, so they can form a Community.

5. Your road forward is for the villa owners to form a Community. They can then take their rightful place in society.

6. Can you imagine a meeting with 103 participants? My people point out that you would have to assign coefficients to the parties. So each of the 100 villa owners would be voting one-half of one per cent, for example, while each of the townhouse Community presidents would be voting 17 per cent.

7. Good posts, Jool and Parilla. One small and plaintive quibble. Don't you trust my translation of Horizontal Law in You and the Law in Spain? You know, in earlier editions, we did print the Law in Spanish, with my translation and explanation in English. So people could show their lawyer and establish clear communication. But it became too long.

Good luck with it, David Searl
You and the Law in Spain

westend
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby westend » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:13 pm

Thank you for your help. I have written to the secretary of the macro community - pointing out that a "macro-community joins individual communities together"

So far I have not had a reply.

But what is your legal opinion regarding the voting procedure - is there any legal objection to one property one vote - even though this would mean about 150 people eligible to vote - or is it the president of each of the communities that has a vote - ie potentially only 4 people with voting rights ?

Parilla
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby Parilla » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:08 pm

Westend, though my view is obviously influenced by our problems, I think you have hit the nail on the head, in that yes you would have the four presidents of the sub communities as your only representation on the Macro Com, each with a voting right ratio representing the number of homes in their community to the total on the urbanisation - not absolutely sure this is correct but it is what we have.

The LPH establishes various types of majorities for proposals depending on the subject of the proposal to be voted on by the four presidents, some unanimity, some 60%, etc etc (in David's book, article 17) which are termed "qualified majorities". For Macro communities, the qualified majority proposals demand that the sub communities must first vote on approval of that proposal or not, and their president must vote accordingly at the Macro meeting. Unfortunately, the qualified majority subjects are not usually the day to day matters which mainly impact on the community life, and there is no need under the Act for the President to consult his community beforehand on these, he can vote as he personally wishes, and to hell with what the majority of the community might think.

In practice I guess that woud be ok if all the presidents were fair and reasonable, but the reality is different. Our own community has over the last four years paid over 200,000 euros to the Macro Community, not one euro of which has been accounted for to us - annual Macro Com accounts are provided for the presidents, but there is no provision in the LPH under Article 24 which governs Macros, for that info to be given to owners in the sub community.

Rant over.
Parilla

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Retro P
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Re: Rules re: Macro communities

Postby Retro P » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:54 pm

[quote="westend"]Thanks for your replies - and sympathy!


Why do you believe we have sympathy for you, personally I think you are smoke and mirrors !!
Ah! the full english!!


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