Watchdog BBC1 tonight

[pmb]

Can't see another thread about this so I'll draw your attention to the prog at 8pm BST as there is a report about properties in Spain now scheduled for demolition. PS - don't shoot the messenger!

[pete_l]

Oooh. maybe they'll have some new information that is insightful, up to date, accurate and actionable. I can't see why they would go to all the trouble of producing a programme about Spain and property if they didn't

[alig99]

A pretty poor report by the BBC and also the Spanish Ambassador

[Julie]

The ambassador was still pushing sales, don't think he had a clue about the real strength of the problem, I thought he was laughable really, but thats not nice for thoses who were hoping for some help Lol !

[lenox]

The BBC Watchdog program duly went out yesterday evening on the telly. It was titled: 'Spanish Dreams reduced to Rubble' and once again takes on the great Spanish property rip-off where 'thousands' (tens of thousands) of homes were planned, built, marketed, sold, paid for... and only then declared illegal. There's a clip of the show: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/201 ... homes.html together with a report. The comments may be more useful. Of course, you can't view the clip if you live in Spain (thanks BBC), but perhaps the Spanish television will broadcast it one day (you think maybe.. they won't?)
Here's that amusing comment from the Spanish ambassador in London about the housing issue:
"Hundreds of thousands of British citizens own properties in Spain. The great majority of them have no problems and happily enjoy their homes. The cases mentioned in the BBC programme "Watchdog" are very regrettable, but rather exceptional.
"There are different reasons for these cases. Some are due to fraud committed by private companies or individuals. Sometimes the houses are against the law, in particular against planning or environmental legislation.
"The Spanish authorities are fully aware of these problems and are doing their utmost to help those affected and to try to solve these unfortunate situations. Their rights are fully protected, as Spain is a State based on the rule of law."
*There are no immediate plans to show the program on Spanish television.

[Beachcomber]

What a lamentable and predictable performance by the Spanish ambassador who tried to wind up with a sales pitch for Spain. The term 'used car salesman' comes to mind.

He preaches to us that Spain is a 'state based on the rule of law'. Being a member state of the European community that is nothing less than citizens of other member states would expect. That is why they misguidedly put their faith in Spanish lawyers and other Spanish professionals to protect their interests when they purchase a property.

Mr Ambassador, it is your own mayors, lawyers, architects, promoters, and politicians and functionaries of the Junta de Andalucía whom you need to remind that Spain is a state which is supposedly based on the rule of law.

[katy]

I had the impression he didn't know very much about the problems. He spoke as if there was only one or two who had been scammed

[mhic]

He knows about them alright Katy, smarmy git. I thought the program should have made it a lot clearer that it is not just Brits who have this problem.

Mhic.

[ajtg1952]

I think you are being a bit hard on the Ambassador. I think he fully understands the problems but is pretty powerless to do anything about it. Anne Robinson is not a good interviewer. She see's herself as the female equivilant of Jeremy Paxman; but isn't. She did not let him anwer her first question and then badgered him to give promises he obviously couldn't give. In fact he said he could not give promises.

I feel dreadfully sorry for all those within this problem. I have a house less than 6 years old in the Campo. I think it is legal but I cannot be 100% sure. So I am not being complacent.

Everyone knows the solution. Draw a line under all properties that have "legal" paperwork and make them full complient. Then make sure from now on every new property goes through a laid out system; no matter how arduous, to ensure full legality. It may mean no more new properties can be built; so be it, but this mess has to get straightened out.

But finally, remember, Spain does not have a monopoly on demolitioning illegal buildings!

[pete_l]

But finally, remember, Spain does not have a monopoly on demolitioning illegal buildings!

Happens in England, too. Only last week:
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2072 ... _torn_down

Maybe the answer is to force every house sale to be done by lawyers and punish them if the requisite permissions are not in place.

[Lavanda]

ajtg1952 wrote: "Then make sure from now on every new property goes through a laid out system; no matter how arduous, to ensure full legality."

With 5% just hacked off civil servants salary in Spain, any extra, or even thorough, or better yet, just normal work is out of the question. I have a friend in the Ayuntamiento who told me that 5% less pay means 5% less work. I'm not sure I don't sympathize - but that's another topic heading.

[Nimrod]

The ambassador made an unsuccessful attempt to be all things to all men.
Total muppet..

[frank]

But finally, remember, Spain does not have a monopoly on demolitioning illegal buildings!

Happens in England, too. Only last week:
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2072 ... _torn_down

That's one, and it was demolished because it was built without planning permission. The difference is most of the one's threatened with demolition in Spain had all the necessary paper work in place, only to find later the Junta overruled it. A very different situation. Properties built without planning permission should be expected to be demolished no matter where you live, you proceed at your peril.

[katy]

But finally, remember, Spain does not have a monopoly on demolitioning illegal buildings!

Happens in England, too. Only last week:
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2072 ... _torn_down

Maybe the answer is to force every house sale to be done by lawyers and punish them if the requisite permissions are not in place.

Most people did use Lawyers and the outcome was that they too had illegal properties.

[pete_l]

My intention was to put the stress on the " and punish them" - the lawyers that is. ISTM it would be comparatively simple to send an instruction to every solicitor in Spain to the effect that

Code: Select all

If you permit / suffer  a property to be bought or sold without the correct legalisations (which can only come from the Junta / national government - delete as necessary) you will be held personally to account, both to your client for damages, and to the law for commiting a crime

That should focus the mind considerably. It might even reduce the oversupply of properties on the market, which would shore up prices,, if that's a good thing?

[Anonymous]

I am very familiar with the work of someone (most definitely not a lawyer) who has been assisting foreigners with property purchase in Spain for several years.

I know that this person has advised a considerable number of prospective purchasers against purchasing certain properties for various reasons such as proindivisa, built on protected land, no building licence, no certificate of first occupation, etc,etc.

Some of these people have heeded the advice but others, under great pressure from and at the insistence of the estate agent concerned, have consulted a well-known firm of lawyers in the area and have been told in words to the effect of 'don't worry, that person is not a lawyer and does not understand the finer points of purchasing property in Spain' and, subsequently, have gone ahead and purchased the property in question as a result of which I know for a fact that, without exception, they now have problems which are basically unresolvable.

So please do not suggest forcing prospective purchasers to use the dubious services of some Jack the Lad toe-rag of a lawyer in a natty suit with a few words of pigeon English to handle their property transaction because whatever safeguards you try to write into their contact they will find some way of shirking responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

[Jool]

What is proindivisa please?

[Beachcomber]

I didn't really want to type it all out again and managed to find this from a post I made several years ago:

'Pro indiviso is where a plot of land which cannot be legally segregated is physically divided up into several smaller plots with each person owning a share in the whole plot. Although each owner has an escritura it will quite clearly state that the plot has been subdivided in this way.

It is normal for a husband and wife to own a property in what is described as 'mitad y pro indiviso' and whilst it would also be quite acceptable for various members of an extended family to own a property in this way it is hardly a good idea to be sharing a plot of land with some completely unknown person because if he gets into financial difficulties the whole plot could be embargoed by his creditors not just his share of it.

It would also be theoretically impossible to obtain permission to build on each undivided participation and even if a dwelling is erected illegally it would be impossible to contract for the various services and would, or course, render the property virtually unsellable in the future.

Such a division and sale of land is not illegal and as long as the purchaser is aware of the fact and all its implications it is up to him to make the decision. However, it is a sad fact that many purchasers are totally unaware of the problems and the way in which the escritura is translated in the notary’s office does nothing to enlighten them. In fact, in many cases the translation at this point becomes deliberately garbled and the relevant sections glossed over in a calculated attempt to keep them in the dark.'

[Jool]

Thank you. Definitely a risk to avoid

[janda_grant2]

The difference is most of the one's threatened with demolition in Spain had all the necessary paper work in place, only to find later the Junta overruled it.

Did they overrule it - or ,more likely, were they ever asked for permission in the first place? Most of these properties seem to have local agreement, but since 2003 that isn't enough.