Coronavirus

[olive]

Writing people off?

Every single day Nations health services “ write “ people off. In the uk I think it is NICE that decides whether an expensive life saving drug or treatment is used or not used. We have all read of families trying to get their sick family member to say the USA for life saving treatment. Without it they are written off. My brothers life might have been saved if his health authority had the same multi disciplinary cancer teams that exist in other parts of England. Where do you stop?

Those saved by governments extreme actions have each cost tens of millions each.

There is no similarity whatsoever with the poison spat at the McCanns

[Devils Advocate]

we havent heard from Beachcomber yet ... maybe I made the mistake of referrring to a 'health crisis' ?

What's your reason for pushing for an answer off Beachcomber? He's made his thoughts clear already on it.

And people agree with him including me.

If you don't then fair enough, plenty of people don't, but no need for that sort of pushy and indignant post.

[gavilan]

DA I was not being 'pushy and indignant' ... I was interested to hear from Beachcomber his take on this ... and what he meant by 'farce'

[Beachcomber]

My take on it??? If you need to ask the question you obviously haven't read all of my posts. I have also described it as a 'charade'. I am certainly not going over it all again or justify my opinions.

I am currently re-reading 1984. I first read it in my teens when it was just a novel before it became a 21st century instruction manual. Some of the characters are easily recognisable in today's context.

If you want any clarification of my views on this whole farce/charade/fiasco/debacle (take your pick) watch some of the High Wire videos on You Tube (and the banned ones on B itchute) which, for me, say it all.

[gavilan]

I wasnt asking you to justify your opinions ... I was asking what you would have done differently ...

[Paulinmalaga]

At this stage of the Global Pandemic it is clear to see that some Governments (and their citizens) have performed far better than others. If there was a league table in my opinion it would currently be a close call for top honours between Japan and New Zealand and Indonesia faring quite well also.

[katy]

Performed or just lucky. Anyone who has been to NZ sees the difference to over populated Europe. Indonesia has had it’s highest total of deaths yesterday(82) and there has been questions about some of their figures too. Japan never had a lockdown.
Part of Galicia gone into lockdown now...where will it end? Not over till it’s over.

[olive]

well that would depend on what your criteria are.

Lowest number of deaths per capita for 2020? That would be quite easy to achieve. For example New Zealand just shut its doors. Not so easy for North European countries that are air transport hubs or even Northern Italy with all its industry - a lot of which appears to be controlled or Chinese owned. I would wager good money that there isn't much Chinese owned industry in New Zealand for example. ( The issue is that of infection being brought into the country before it was on the radar.)

then there is the long game. Is there herd immunity? If so, countries that had a lot of deaths and ergo a lot of infections ( unknown due to poor levels of testing). There is a belief that once you have had it you can't get it again. I am one not convinced of that assertion. Still so many unknowns including accurate death/infection recording stats.

[Paulinmalaga]

Performed or just lucky. Anyone who has been to NZ sees the difference to over populated Europe. Indonesia has had it’s highest total of deaths yesterday(82) and there has been questions about some of their figures too. Japan never had a lockdown.
Part of Galicia gone into lockdown now...where will it end? Not over till it’s over.

Yes I anticipated when I put New Zealand that population density would be pulled into it hence levelling it up with Japan of which the density angle cannot be used. With regards to Indonesia yes you're correct regarding yesterday which is why in my post I specifically started it with "At this stage of the Pandemic" and which their current figures reflect. Still at this stage ie today 82 deaths is too many but out of a population of 273 million ain't that bad compared with an aweful lot of other countries. Please point me to where I said Japan had a lockdown?

[Paulinmalaga]

well that would depend on what your criteria are.

Lowest number of deaths per capita for 2020? That would be quite easy to achieve. For example New Zealand just shut its doors. Not so easy for North European countries that are air transport hubs or even Northern Italy with all its industry - a lot of which appears to be controlled or Chinese owned. I would wager good money that there isn't much Chinese owned industry in New Zealand for example. ( The issue is that of infection being brought into the country before it was on the radar.)

then there is the long game. Is there herd immunity? If so, countries that had a lot of deaths and ergo a lot of infections ( unknown due to poor levels of testing). There is a belief that once you have had it you can't get it again. I am one not convinced of that assertion. Still so many unknowns including accurate death/infection recording stats.

So please do explain Japan then as they didn't "just shut its doors"

"Without a vaccine there is no such thing as Herd Immunity "Can you name a virus where you let it run through the population to get herd immunity? Herd immunity is what you get from a vaccine. At the moment we’re at about 65,000 excess deaths, according the Financial Times. I honestly think we could have prevented about 50,000 of them, if we’d gone early like South Korea. I think Sage got it wrong, PHE got it wrong, and Boris Johnson got it wrong.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... gpPunIAc2s

[Lavanda]

Herd immunity is what you get when you have a fit, healthy population that eat properly, exercise well, do not smoke or do drugs or loll about on a sofa all day eating crisps and have a tip-top immune system. If vaccinations gave herd immunity against x then why are so many people dying of y? ALL and everything a person sticks into their body results in the end body. Look at the general fitness of a population of a given country and look at the health statistics. Very often there is a link.

[Paulinmalaga]

Sorry I didn't know you were better informed and more knowledgable than the Articles Author Former WHO director Anthony Costello.

[Paulinmalaga]

H If vaccinations gave herd immunity against x then why are so many people dying of y?

Because if you get the HepB Vaccine ( x ) you can still die of many other diseases (y) as you only generate the antibodies to (x)

[Lavanda]

I guess you don’t actually know me, Paul, no.

Fat lot of good to get vaccinated then, isn’t it?

[K&LTupper]

What is the most accurate site for global covid19 stats please....if there is such a thing (accurate that is)? Gracias

[Paulinmalaga]

Interesting. Another hypothesis. Sorry its so long but original article is behind the Telegraph Paywall


and for that reason this post has been deleted for breach of copyright (Rule 1-2) ADC Moderator

[gavilan]

here's an alternative scenario: we should have ignored lockdown (the fittest will survive), not bothered about wearing gloves or masks (conflicting advice re effectiveness), nor had regard for social distancing as is a waste of space ie eat, drink and be merry with as many friends as you have ... not been concerned about rising numbers of cases/deaths (accurate statistics are difficult to find) ... nor been alarmed by OAP care home deaths (the inmates are a waste of time and resources anyway ... as are mentally ill people, physically disabled people, those in prison ... and/or anyone who cannot contribute to society/economy ie are not productive ... and those who live beyond will be those who get the economy back on its feet and blossoming ... and just in case, there's a miracle vaccine at the end of the rainbow

[Paulinmalaga]

Interesting. Another hypothesis. Sorry its so long but original article is behind the Telegraph Paywall


and for that reason this post has been deleted for breach of copyright (Rule 1-2) ADC Moderator

Apologies

[El Cid]

here's an alternative scenario: we should have ignored lockdown (the fittest will survive), not bothered about wearing gloves or masks (conflicting advice re effectiveness), nor had regard for social distancing as is a waste of space ie eat, drink and be merry with as many friends as you have ... not been concerned about rising numbers of cases/deaths (accurate statistics are difficult to find) ... nor been alarmed by OAP care home deaths (the inmates are a waste of time and resources anyway ... as are mentally ill people, physically disabled people, those in prison ... and/or anyone who cannot contribute to society/economy ie are not productive ... and those who live beyond will be those who get the economy back on its feet and blossoming ... and just in case, there's a miracle vaccine at the end of the rainbow

That was the original government strategy but when Professor Harrison said that his model showed half a million deaths Boris panicked and imposed lockdown.

With hindsight it is certain that the elderly and those with preexisting conditions were the ones in serious danger and they could have been properly protected and then let the rest get infected and probably survive and for herd immunity to kill it eventually.

I really would not want to be the person to make that decision and clearly Boris didn’t want to do it either.

Overall I think that the worst mistake was their lack of concern for people in care homes. That was the same mistake they made in Spain with much the same horrific consequences.

Sid

[olive]

here's an alternative scenario: we should have ignored lockdown (the fittest will survive), not bothered about wearing gloves or masks (conflicting advice re effectiveness), nor had regard for social distancing as is a waste of space ie eat, drink and be merry with as many friends as you have ... not been concerned about rising numbers of cases/deaths (accurate statistics are difficult to find) ... nor been alarmed by OAP care home deaths (the inmates are a waste of time and resources anyway ... as are mentally ill people, physically disabled people, those in prison ... and/or anyone who cannot contribute to society/economy ie are not productive ... and those who live beyond will be those who get the economy back on its feet and blossoming ... and just in case, there's a miracle vaccine at the end of the rainbow

Did you read my post at 1.41 pm?

The whole point of this argument is the cost of saving lives. For years a price has been put on every drug,procedure, vaccine etc. Then suddenly along comes CV19 and society goes mad and literally no expense is spared to save people. Why is cv19 different to swine flu, seasonal flu or even excess heat? All have a price put on them but not cv19. Why? Do you not think it a little strange?

Someone, not us oldies, is going to be paying for this course of action for tens of years. Think of the young Spaniards who ten years ago looked forward to getting married, setting up home and having a family. They are still at home now single and facing what ten or twenty more years. That is a generation written off.

I used the word callous earlier. A relative “lived “ in a care home for 12 years with motor neurone disease. She was an ex nurse and begged her daughter to end her life as she knew what she was going to have to live through. Food for thought or in her case food through a pipe in her stomach for years.